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TOPIC: The Mirage of the Natural Foot

RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 12 Jun 2010 14:35 #346

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Eric Russell in gray

No, I call BS on that.

What you call reality is a personal matter.

Hmmmm, what does a muscle do after in contracts.

Do tell? How does a horse maintain speed if the muscle is not contracting?


Inertia.

Please explain how speed does not decrease after initial increase. Do tell? And please explain "exactly" how this happens?

Newton's First Law.

Please explain how the body goes over the limb without the muscles of the scapula contracting.

Please review Bro. Jaye's post in which he quotes Dr. Rooney on the function of the scapular muscles.

Tom, take a break from asking the questions and answer some for a change.

Under the oft-stated conditions, because the radius, carpus and third metacarpal are aligned, the ONLY function of the front end during the impact, fetlock descending and fetlock ascending support phases of movement (those phases of movement in which the hoof is on the ground after a lead has been established) is support. In short, inertia, not the scapular muscles - and certainly not the flexors or extensors, moves the horse past the support phases of movement.

Since we're considering the front end, you might want to ask yourself why the bony column is aligned at impact? Why does it remain aligned throughout the support phase of movement? When do the flexors flex the bony column? When do the extensors extend the column. What is the role of the suspensory ligament (which has muscle-like characteristics) in support? Please take note of the position of the third metacarpal during the various phases of movement during Muybridge's famous sequential photos.



Should you find the Socratic form of argument offputting, you can always try to substitute incredulity for critical thinking. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 12 Jun 2010 21:38 #347

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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DeniseMc in gray

From Rooney "The Lame Horse" 1998: pg 16 (reference to function of forelimb) Support and Propulsion: Once the foot has impacted with the surface, the load on the leg--the body weight or some part thereof-increases to a maximum at midsupport to lift-off..... The leg must sustain that load as well as helping to move the load forward." I don't know what that means to you, but it says to me that inertia alone does not continue moving the load forward.

Were the good doctor alive, I'd ask him to explain how - other than serving as a fulcurm which is obviously unarguable - the single front that's on the ground at any time under the stated consitions is "helping to move the load forward."

Since Dr. Rooney has unfortunately passed on to his reward, I'll ask you. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 12 Jun 2010 22:19 #348

  • Clint Burrell
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
stuff deleted
"helping to move the load forward."

:)

Supporting the load in forward motion until the hinds are back to provide further propulsion? This would help move the load forward.
Clint Burrell

"You say your from collage,
but you don't seem to bright.
You just brought a swichblade
to a pistol fight"
Move On by Chris Knight
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 14 Jun 2010 04:51 #349

  • jack-mac
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Rick Burten wrote:
And lets not overlook the requirement that in the FHF section, you must use your first and last legal names as either your screen name or in your signature.
We all know my name by now Rick , as you keep calling me by it Troll :D
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 14 Jun 2010 06:33 #350

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
DeniseMc in gray

From Rooney "The Lame Horse" 1998: pg 16 (reference to function of forelimb) Support and Propulsion: Once the foot has impacted with the surface, the load on the leg--the body weight or some part thereof-increases to a maximum at midsupport to lift-off..... The leg must sustain that load as well as helping to move the load forward." I don't know what that means to you, but it says to me that inertia alone does not continue moving the load forward.

Were the good doctor alive, I'd ask him to explain how - other than serving as a fulcurm which is obviously unarguable - the single front that's on the ground at any time under the stated consitions is "helping to move the load forward."

Since Dr. Rooney has unfortunately passed on to his reward, I'll ask you. :)
MMMMMMMMM not very nice, no respect for the dead, Time to put your nonsense to rest & you along with it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEl2mC6DcOU.
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 14 Jun 2010 09:25 #351

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lets talk about the scapular & the blade & its see saw motion & the back & neck muscles,What do you say Tom want to tell us all about them or didn't know they play a major role in propulsion of the front half of the horses body & limbs , Oh that's right your still dicking around with those old photo's that have been lined up horizontally after being developed & don't portray any were close to a proper analyses of the full function of the front half of the horse & what's taking place under the hide, I wont be holding my Breath waiting for your detailed anatomy summery of theses structures , as you haven't even been able to give me a answer to what happens to a book when it runs out of table, you know the basic inertia demonstration they give for kids in primary school so they have a basic understanding of what Inertia is, part of that lesson all so includes how it needs a support base to gravitational pull for an object to keep travelling in the direction of the line of force.maybe those tobacco chewing un schooled Texan red necks might believed your BS foaming from the mouth, but you got'a do a little better here to impress.
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 14 Jun 2010 12:08 #352

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Tom Stovall, CJF;203964 wrote:
Eric Russell in gray

No, I call BS on that.

What you call reality is a personal matter.

Hmmmm, what does a muscle do after in contracts.

Do tell? How does a horse maintain speed if the muscle is not contracting?


Inertia.

Please explain how speed does not decrease after initial increase. Do tell? And please explain "exactly" how this happens?

Newton's First Law.

Please explain how the body goes over the limb without the muscles of the scapula contracting.

Please review Bro. Jaye's post in which he quotes Dr. Rooney on the function of the scapular muscles.

Tom, take a break from asking the questions and answer some for a change.

Under the oft-stated conditions, because the radius, carpus and third metacarpal are aligned, the ONLY function of the front end during the impact, fetlock descending and fetlock ascending support phases of movement (those phases of movement in which the hoof is on the ground after a lead has been established) is support. In short, inertia, not the scapular muscles - and certainly not the flexors or extensors, moves the horse past the support phases of movement.

Since we're considering the front end, you might want to ask yourself why the bony column is aligned at impact? Why does it remain aligned throughout the support phase of movement? When do the flexors flex the bony column? When do the extensors extend the column. What is the role of the suspensory ligament (which has muscle-like characteristics) in support? Please take note of the position of the third metacarpal during the various phases of movement during Muybridge's famous sequential photos.



OK lets take Toms word that the fronts only play a supporting role & inertia, they are not pushing or pulling only powered by the hinds, if we except that to be the case , then we must also except that a horse at a gallop or canter cant jump, & that means anything, be it a 4ft high obstacle or a trench,it means the horse cant change direction due to not being able to perform differentiations in leg strides or speed or compensate for any uneven slippery surface, For Tom to be claiming inertia & only the hinds are powering is to imply no other other forces are being applied or coming in to play which is a nonsense , maybe Tom needs to answer how does a horse Jump or change direction based on his model.
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 14 Jun 2010 13:19 #353

  • Rick Burten
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DeniseMc wrote:
The vertical force lessens after midstance; aren't the muscles that are responsible for leg retraction (serratus ventralis cervisis and the latissimus dorsi) continuing to contract and then instead of supporting just a vertical load aren't they then contributing to forward horizontal movement?
By the time that occurs, the horse's body has passed the point at which the limb could [potentially] contribute to propulsion.
Isn't there another set of muscles that help take over support and then propulsion, like the biceps, then the triceps?
By the time that could occur, the leg has unlocked and is no longer in a position to contribute to forward motion, What it is in a position to do is, engage in flexion(retraction). By that time, inertia has overtaken and passed limb position so all that as the limb ends its support job, it merely has to flex(retract) to begin the cycle once again.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 14 Jun 2010 16:06 #354

  • jack-mac
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Rick Burten wrote:
By the time that occurs, the horse's body has passed the point at which the limb could [potentially] contribute to propulsion.

By the time that could occur, the leg has unlocked and is no longer in a position to contribute to forward motion, What it is in a position to do is, engage in flexion(retraction). By that time, inertia has overtaken and passed limb position so all that as the limb ends its support job, it merely has to flex(retract) to begin the cycle once again.
Well Rick you best look at the hind in those photos ,your same analyses could be drawn :rolleyes:, Oh & have you figured out gravity yet, ill give you a hint unbalanced force when those legs come off the ground :D
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 16 Jun 2010 11:49 #355

  • Rick Burten
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DeniseMc wrote:
Unless you have any data that indicates otherwise, I think there is propulsion generated during late stance.
Fair enough. You are and have always been free to think as you choose.:)
From Back, Clayton Equine Locomotion" 2001 pg 98; In reference to shoulder: "The power profile suggests elastic energy storage and release in early stance, followed by active propulsion in terminal stance."
"Suggests" doesn't equal 'happens/occurs'. At best, it is an educated guess.......
Again, this is trotting gait, but why would there not be propulsion from the shoulder in the gallop?
What is the bony column alignment during the trot vs the gallop at the instant front leg propulsion is alleged to occur? Why is that important?

Is it not reasonable to conclude that said 'elastic energy' is released not to move the horse forward at the gallop, rather to work towards helping the horse remain horizontal as it is propelled forward by the hind end and inertia? IOW as 'lift' energy *** opposed to forward motion energy other than as energy expended in the swing phase of the limb which may or may not actually contribute to forward motion.
Do you think swinging of the forelimb contributes to forward motion or propulsion?
Only in the sense that it contributes to the force of inertia, not in the sense that the limb is propelling the horse by any interaction with the ground. Much the same as arm swing could be said to be contributing to forward motion in humans. Can/do humans move forward sans arm swing? Ask/watch a woman with a baby in one arm and a bag or groceries in the other....;)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 17 Jun 2010 03:08 #356

  • Rick Burten
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DeniseMc wrote:
Don't know "that instant", but if I had to guess it would be while the hoof (or portion thereof) is still on the ground.
Whats the bony column alignment at the trot vs the gallop? Why is this relevant?
The lift energy would be important for suspension so the horse can gather the hind legs under himself in time. Energy spent extending the forearm would result in a longer stride.
I think I agreed with this observation, or, did I make it myself in a previous post?

Regardless. that's not what this discussion is about. Or at least, that is my take on it.;)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 17 Jun 2010 14:37 #357

jack-mac wrote:



Jack,

It would help me tremendously to understand your argument if you could describe what is occurring in each of the frames above with regard to forward motion.

Thanks in advance,
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 17 Jun 2010 16:35 #358

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KarenStandefer wrote:
Jack,

It would help me tremendously to understand your argument if you could describe what is occurring in each of the frames above with regard to forward motion.

Thanks in advance,

Jacks not here anymore, Bye Jack
Justin Decker

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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 18 Jun 2010 00:05 #359

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He's on a time out.

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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 22 Jun 2010 22:26 #360

  • Jack Evers
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Without using their arms, runners needed four percent more oxygen to run at the same speed than when using their arms. (from pg 333 "The Competitive Runner's Handbook" Bob Glover and Pete Schuder 1983)


Four per cent is more or less the key. Some folks think that's worth arguing about, some think that it's insignificant. You're right Denise, it's fork time.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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