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TOPIC: The Mirage of the Natural Foot

RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 08 Jun 2010 01:23 #316

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A better example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZWueiM4I_Y Now I'm not sure when inertia is suppose to kick in with those front legs, maybe we need to roll him down a hill or something Tom :D:D:D
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 08 Jun 2010 01:34 #317

Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 08 Jun 2010 02:49 #318

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jack-mac in gray

A better example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZWueiM4I_Y

Since the issue is whether or not a horse pulls/pushes with its fronts - at a gallop, after forward motion has been established, aligned radius, carpus and third metacarpal - you somehow feel examples of two-legged dogs better illustrate your argument than examples of four-legged horses?

Now I'm not sure when inertia is suppose to kick in with those front legs, maybe we need to roll him down a hill or something Tom.


A more observant scholar would've noticed that while the two-legged dog pulling a wheeled prosthesis was able to establish forward motion, it was unable to maintain its forward motion at a gallop without the benefit of inertia.

Did you actually watch the video you posted? If so, you would've noticed that during the prosthetic equivalent of a three-beat gallop (i.e., aligned bony column during the impact and support phases of motion) the pooch manages to get on a lead only for short periods on the flat or while going downhill. Please don't hurt yourself by engaging in an unaccustomed activity, but think: On a lead? Why is that significant? :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 08 Jun 2010 03:57 #319

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
jack-mac in gray

A better example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZWueiM4I_Y

Since the issue is whether or not a horse pulls/pushes with its fronts - at a gallop, after forward motion has been established, aligned radius, carpus and third metacarpal - you somehow feel examples of two-legged dogs better illustrate your argument than examples of four-legged horses?

Now I'm not sure when inertia is suppose to kick in with those front legs, maybe we need to roll him down a hill or something Tom.


A more observant scholar would've noticed that while the two-legged dog pulling a wheeled prosthesis was able to establish forward motion, it was unable to maintain its forward motion at a gallop without the benefit of inertia.

Did you actually watch the video you posted? If so, you would've noticed that during the prosthetic equivalent of a three-beat gallop (i.e., aligned bony column during the impact and support phases of motion) the pooch manages to get on a lead only for short periods on the flat or while going downhill. Please don't hurt yourself by engaging in an unaccustomed activity, but think: On a lead? Why is that significant? :)
No its a perfect example , if the wheels providing support were to fall off regardless whether the dog was travelling at 35mph!!!!! , the dogs rear end would fall to the ground at the speed that mass falls in accordance to gravity, the distance from the ground the dogs rear end is from the ground determining at what rate per second it will fall at, hence determining time of impact with the ground, would you be able to get the wheels back on before the its azzzz hits the ground , of course you couldn't because the moment the wheels come off, you lose hight clearance between azzzz & ground due to mass falling in accordance to gravity. hence proof the horse has to lift his front half of his body backup upon landing to make the next stride after losing hight from his front legs leaving the support of the ground, at some stage the front half no different then the back half of the horse needing to gain hight to compensate for fall & lose of clearance,horizontal inertia will not provide hight lost due to gravity.that's a fact
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 08 Jun 2010 11:11 #320

Again you are all ignoring how cultural factors figure into this discussion. Please try and look at this from jacks perspective. Here is an australian athlete at full race speed. Note how the front and hind limbs function.






Acutally upon further review it appears that the front limbs of this animal athlete are primarily providing support and the hinds in the photo providing propulsion. This supports Tom's position not Jack-Mac.
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"What people do not appreciate is that every time a horse submits to...
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 08 Jun 2010 20:59 #321

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LOL that's funny George , but you forgot to factor in the seat :D joking to one side F= mg+ma there's no way around it if the horse wants its front or hind legs to leave the ground to make the next stride, I think Tom has confused acceleration with maintained velocity & power to weight ratio to maintain inertia with in the cycle of the horses forward motion , the front limbs pulling & pushing with greater force at the start of motion to get the horses mass moving, then they need to or have to pulling & pushing during optimum maintained velocity. but there still pulling & pushing F= mg+ma sees to that.
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 09 Jun 2010 03:37 #322

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jack-mac in gray

LOL that's funny George , but you forgot to factor in the seat :D joking to one side F= mg+ma there's no way around it if the horse wants its front or hind legs to leave the ground to make the next stride, I think Tom has confused acceleration with maintained velocity & power to weight ratio to maintain inertia with in the cycle of the horses forward motion , the front limbs pulling & pushing with greater force at the start of motion to get the horses mass moving, then they need to or have to pulling & pushing during optimum maintained velocity. but there still pulling & pushing F= mg+ma sees to that.


While your obfuscatory nonsense has been mildly amusing, please try to focus and address the issue at hand. For some unfathomable reason, although you've been asked several times, you appear unwilling/unable to explain exactly how you feel it's possible for a horse to propel itself (Pull? Push?) with it's fronts - at a gallop, after forward motion has been established, while its radius, carpus and third metacarpal are aligned.

It's a simple question, try to answer it.:)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 09 Jun 2010 04:00 #323

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Tom Stovall, CJF-jack-mac in gray

LOL that's funny George , but you forgot to factor in the seat :D joking to one side F= mg+ma there's no way around it if the horse wants its front or hind legs to leave the ground to make the next stride, I think Tom has confused acceleration with maintained velocity & power to weight ratio to maintain inertia with in the cycle of the horses forward motion , the front limbs pulling & pushing with greater force at the start of motion to get the horses mass moving, then they need to or have to pulling & pushing during optimum maintained velocity. but there still pulling & pushing F= mg+ma sees to that.

While your obfuscatory nonsense has been mildly amusing, please try to focus and address the issue at hand. .....

Pard, Why do you "parlay" with Jac? He has demonstrated his delirium to an expert extent.

He calls me "lefty"; you, the physics flunk out. We both know it's ..." If it suits the horse when it leaves the mats, the horse has a month and "WE" start all over again...." ;):)
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 09 Jun 2010 14:10 #324

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Jaye Perry in gray

Pard, Why do you "parlay" with Jac? He has demonstrated his delirium to an expert extent.

He calls me "lefty"; you, the physics flunk out. We both know it's ..." If it suits the horse when it leaves the mats, the horse has a month and "WE" start all over again...."
;):)

Amen. Exit, stage left. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 09 Jun 2010 14:12 #325

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
jack-mac in gray

LOL that's funny George , but you forgot to factor in the seat :D joking to one side F= mg+ma there's no way around it if the horse wants its front or hind legs to leave the ground to make the next stride, I think Tom has confused acceleration with maintained velocity & power to weight ratio to maintain inertia with in the cycle of the horses forward motion , the front limbs pulling & pushing with greater force at the start of motion to get the horses mass moving, then they need to or have to pulling & pushing during optimum maintained velocity. but there still pulling & pushing F= mg+ma sees to that.


While your obfuscatory nonsense has been mildly amusing, please try to focus and address the issue at hand. For some unfathomable reason, although you've been asked several times, you appear unwilling/unable to explain exactly how you feel it's possible for a horse to propel itself (Pull? Push?) with it's fronts - at a gallop, after forward motion has been established, while its radius, carpus and third metacarpal are aligned.

It's a simple question, try to answer it.:)
I have answered it , its not my fault if your comprehension to put it nicely is grossly lacking !!! for some strange reason you keep coming back with the same futile question. which amounts in comparability to some one asking how the back legs power's when the metatarsal ,fetlock joint ,proximal & pastern joint are aligned,The physics of inertia proves they have to push & pull , I think you need to figure out what happened to the sliding book when it ran out of table .I Think that was the basic primary school demonstration of inertia,its sad you mist that class on inertia .
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 09 Jun 2010 14:33 #326

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Jaye Perry wrote:
Pard, Why do you "parlay" with Jac? He has demonstrated his delirium to an expert extent.

He calls me "lefty"; you, the physics flunk out. We both know it's ..." If it suits the horse when it leaves the mats, the horse has a month and "WE" start all over again...." ;):)
Well you two girls run along now, making sure you hold one anthers hand, as there doesn't seem to be any gravity in your flat world & I think the term for that is called being off the planet :D
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 09 Jun 2010 15:44 #327

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jack-mac in gray

Well you two girls run along now, making sure you hold one anthers hand, as there doesn't seem to be any gravity in your flat world & I think the term for that is called being off the planet :D

I'm not much on biblical references; however, given the irrefutable pictorial evidence contained in the recent exchanges and your consistent denial of reality, Matthew 7:6 comes to mind: "Give not that which is holy to the dogs, nor throw your pearls to the swine; otherwise they will trample them under their feet and then turn and attack you." :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 09 Jun 2010 16:26 #328

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Well seen as I'm a Pagan, I don't know what to make of that mumbo jumbo , you just posted Tom , but I'm figuring its a declaration of War. :cool:
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 09 Jun 2010 16:35 #329

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
jack-mac in gray

Well you two girls run along now, making sure you hold one anthers hand, as there doesn't seem to be any gravity in your flat world & I think the term for that is called being off the planet :D

I'm not much on biblical references; however, given the irrefutable pictorial evidence contained in the recent exchanges and your consistent denial of reality, Matthew 7:6 comes to mind: "Give not that which is holy to the dogs, nor throw your pearls to the swine; otherwise they will trample them under their feet and then turn and attack you." :)
Tom this can be quit easily resolved on your part, just by you demonstrating how gravity is avoided. if you can do that you win the argument the front legs only support .
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RE:The Mirage of the Natural Foot 09 Jun 2010 16:43 #330

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DeniseMc wrote:
This might be an interesting read: http://hoofcare.com/PDF/catapult_action.pdf
It states "the legs of large cursorial animals function like pogo sticks"--a spring-mass system. Picture the mass of the animal landing on the (aligned)front legs loading the spring (absorbing shock), and then releasing the stored energy resulting in propulsion. If there was no spring system to help propel the horse forward, no energy would be returned and the horse would lose forward momentum as it's front legs left the ground after being planted for support.
The catapult system the paper talks about is for rapid protraction of the forelimbs; where the brachiocephalus/biceps "spring" is stretched during stance (carpus is locked) and the energy then released for rapid protaction when the GRF approaches neutral axis of carpal joint.
If the horse had to rely solely on muscle power for propulsion during a gallop it would have to have so much muscle mass that it would be so bulked up it would slow it down; they didn't evolve like that; they rely on a spring system.
LOL I don't know who wrote that rubbish, but the last 1,000 horses I cut up & boned out the tendons were attached to muscles for a reason.
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