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TOPIC: some pics from the clinic

RE:some pics from the clinic 04 Apr 2010 07:07 #61

Gary, this is from a clinic on reining and horseshoeing I do:

"Where a low heeled front foot results in a stretched out stance, a low heeled hind results in a camped under stance. This is one of the reasons why about 15 years ago Reining horse shoers (yes, including yours truly) felt they needed to either drop the heels or lengthen the toe to make a horse stop decently. By lowering heels the hind feet will move forward and the pelvis will rotate resulting in a pushed up or rounded back, especially at the lumbar area. Just the ticket we all thought! It was only later when we found out horses got sore real fast this way. It’s simply too much. You just can not extend the back like that 24/7 and expect to get away with it!
A long toe long heeled foot will cause breakover problems as well. Just like they do on the fronts. However a horse has another way of coping with such a delayed breakover. Where the delayed breakover in the front causes knee action and a hollow back, a horse will try and alleviate the long hind toe problem by using it’s stifles and hocks more. To be able to do that, a horse will contract the dorsal muscles especially those around the lumbar and sacro-illiac area. That’s why at first lowering heels appears to improve the sliding stop on a Reiner and why in a few weeks time most horses quit stopping all together".

What I learned over the years is that we need to do all we can to bring a horse in a normal body position. As Grant Moon once put it, its not about correcting the horse, it's all about "normalizing".

The horse the clinician was working on needed the shoe brought back a lot more. Maybe more than the toeclip would allow. This particular clinician would have used a hind shoe with quarterclips to enable just that but my guess is he did not want to do that in a clinic like this one. I would have used the hindshoe though, for me a clinic is explaining on problems you're facing not about text book shoeing. What would have really impressed me if this horse would have been shod with a forged wedged bar shoe. (I'd have used a wedge pad, less work and less chance on embarrassing myself :D)


Ronald Aalders
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RE:some pics from the clinic 04 Apr 2010 10:39 #62

  • BPethick
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clearthinkingone wrote:
I have never given a clinic before to other horseshoers but have talked to some clinicians and understand that it can be tough to do your best shoeing in front of a crowd while talking.

I have and I absolutely agree.
We also don't know what was said or discussed during the shoeing of this horse.
We have all come up short when we went to a foot with a shoe.
Of course we all went back to the anvil and made or shaped new ones that came to length, right? :o
I have been plenty embarrassed at times when the job didn't go as planned.
I did my best to make it right and hopefully learned from it.

You have to respect farriers that have accomplished that which Rob has and are willing to share it with others in the form of Clinics.
Bob Pethick CJF AFA #1340
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Only those who have the patience to do things perfectly will acquire the skill to do difficult things easily...
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RE:some pics from the clinic 04 Apr 2010 11:14 #63

Been to many clinics where clinicians would like those in attendance to get involved thinking and asking questions. It is not just about showing what you would do.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:some pics from the clinic 04 Apr 2010 12:38 #64

  • Ray_Knightley
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I have been to 3 or 4 clinics where Rob has been shoeing ....he was always open to questions of WHY he does something ...I would like to get him in here ,but seem to have lost his card ,and can`t find an e_mail address yet..
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RE:some pics from the clinic 05 Apr 2010 14:57 #65

  • smitty88
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BPethick wrote:
I have and I absolutely agree.
We also don't know what was said or discussed during the shoeing of this horse.
We have all come up short when we went to a foot with a shoe.
Of course we all went back to the anvil and made or shaped new ones that came to length, right? :o
I have been plenty embarrassed at times when the job didn't go as planned.
I did my best to make it right and hopefully learned from it.

You have to respect farriers that have accomplished that which Rob has and are willing to share it with others in the form of Clinics.

I would have alot of respect for Rob
even only seen him once an it might of not been his best shod
horse of the month IMO

but i have also watched the great Pele have a bad game
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:some pics from the clinic 08 Apr 2010 08:48 #66

  • jack-mac
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Thanks Bob

I agree with you on the fit and I like to do the same. What are your thoughts on the trim when dealing with a distorted foot, under run heels?

Woud you trim the heels down more? It appears they could come down more and gain more support. Which would decrease the amount of shoe beyond the heels. The blue line is where I would fit the shoe, but I would have trimmed the heels back a little more.

would you Phil :rolleyes: just to help you out here Phil, heel hight is fine, there run forward don't forget taking them lower will only place more pressure on the navicular from the deep flexor tendon , the problem was the sole wasn't taken down enough at the toe region , that if it was taken down to were it should of been taken to, the toe length would be at the right length, hence the heels of the shoe wouldn't be to short. its a very conmen mistake made when fitting machine made shoe's with a basted toe clip that has been drawn to far back in the web , the fitter compensating for it, mind full not to compromise the white line, tends to leave more sole & toe .
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RE:some pics from the clinic 08 Apr 2010 11:13 #67

  • ray steele
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Smitty,

back on post #45 I asked how this horse traveled before and after the shoeing at the clinic, you probably missed the question, could you let me know ?

Regards

ray Steele
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RE:some pics from the clinic 08 Apr 2010 11:30 #68

  • jack-mac
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
Shoeing reiners -QH's- means working with lopers. What a loper needs is help to use its abdominal muscles. Lowering heels makes it harder on a horse to round its back. A straight HPA is vital on a show reiner. Without it he won't stop or turn long enough to get him trained long enough to make it in the big shows. Rob shoes dressage horses. An whole other ball game. A dressage horse gets away with a dorsi flexed back. In fact the required body posture dressage people are looking for forces a horse to hollow its back.

My centering the shoe around the COA has got to do with this too. A short support length and a long breakover length as demonstrated in Rob's shoeing makes breakover harder. Especially in a soft footing because the heels get pushed in the dirt. As a result a horse will hollowing its back to compensate for the more difficult breakover.

The fact that horses in certain disciplines get away with shoeing that do not meet the mechanics that support them in a correct way does not mean that horse is well shod. In fact I can prove that a race horse will be faster when shod with a long breakover lever and a short support length. If I would shoe a race horse like I shoe a reiner that race horse no doubt will be less fast. This all has to do with dorsi flexing the back. But this does not mean its good for a race horse in the long run (no pun intended ;))

A shoer must know when he shoes a horse in a way that reduces caudal support. But he needs to know why as well. If your mechanics are like Rob's you may need to give it some thought why that works for you. You may find that this has to do with hollowing the back. Because it gives this "nice" flowing/elastic appearance when the horse trots, where what really happpens is that a hollowed back is held from over-flexing by the abdominal muscles.) If that's what your looking for as dressage people are, you need to shoe a horse the way Rob did. Which is fine, this is not about how a horse must be shod, its the result of a particular shoeing that counts. I shoe competitive horses, and I shoe them the way they perform best and keeps them sound as long as possible. Not the other way around. :eek: But again, a shoer needs to know the when and why.


Ronald Aalders
hey clog just one question for you ,how many vertebrae & ribs does a horse have ? , think wisely know, ill let you know if your getting hot or cold or a bit of both :rolleyes:
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RE:some pics from the clinic 08 Apr 2010 17:50 #69

  • smitty88
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ray steele wrote:
Smitty,

back on post #45 I asked how this horse traveled before and after the shoeing at the clinic, you probably missed the question, could you let me know ?

Regards

ray Steele

Ray,
I only seen the horse trot up after the job
he seemed happy enough
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:some pics from the clinic 09 Apr 2010 11:12 #70

  • ray steele
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smitty88 wrote:
for me a bit disappointing


John,

what was disappointing about the clinic for you?

Regards

Ray Steele
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RE:some pics from the clinic 09 Apr 2010 11:17 #71

jack-mac wrote:
would you Phil :rolleyes: just to help you out here Phil, heel hight is fine, there run forward don't forget taking them lower will only place more pressure on the navicular from the deep flexor tendon , the problem was the sole wasn't taken down enough at the toe region , that if it was taken down to were it should of been taken to, the toe length would be at the right length, hence the heels of the shoe wouldn't be to short. its a very conmen mistake made when fitting machine made shoe's with a basted toe clip that has been drawn to far back in the web , the fitter compensating for it, mind full not to compromise the white line, tends to leave more sole & toe .

Thanks for sharing your thoughts in a professional and respectfull manner Jack. I will give the arguement that leaving the heel will continue to distort the foot and result in loss of depth, which in my opinion contributes to more lameness due to impact and loading than theorectical ideas about the mechanics in getting the foot off the ground. By lowering the heels to healthy straighter growth in the heels and dressing back distortion in the toe increases depth and, stronger hoof capsule and better hoof pastern alignment. Which decreases the tension on the deep digital flexor, reduces concussion into sensitive strutures near the bottom of the foot like the attachment of the deep digital flexor tendon, navicular bone and ligaments. What are your thoughts on that concept?

I do get the impression that your all about keeping a healthy non distorted foot on a horse. The problem with most of your posts is the lack of details and how you go about it. Your words would be more credible if you backed it with your work like others have done on here.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:some pics from the clinic 16 Apr 2010 19:27 #72

  • smitty88
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ray steele wrote:
John,

what was disappointing about the clinic for you?

Regards

Ray Steele

In Front
Trim, Fit, Nailing/finish
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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