make up natural cara make up make up tutorial make up korea make up minimalis make up artis make up mata belajar make up make up wardah alat make up makeup forever indonesia makeup artist jakarta tips make up barbie make up natural make up make up wajah make up pesta make up syahrini makeup mata makeup minimalis peralatan make up make up cantik make up mac make up kit jual make up make up sederhana perlengkapan make up gambar make up vidio make up cara makeup minimalis wardah make up make up pac make up glamour cara memakai makeup make up panggung harga make up make up modern make up alami make up dasar pixy make up make up muslimah make up oriflame make up jepang makeover cosmetic make up ultima make up sariayu grosir make up makeup fantasi makeup pesta tas makeup langkah make up make up pria make up malam alat makeup tahapan make up produk make up shading make up mak up make up kebaya make up jilbab make up inez make up simpel contoh make up cara ber makeup makeup wajah tanpa make up make up terbaru toko make up mac makeup indonesia make up soft urutan make up trik make up makeover makeup brand gusnaldi make up paket make up panduan make up jual makeup brush make up bagus alat2 make up make up gusnaldi aplikasi make up alat alat makeup dasar make up inez make up peralatan makeup make up wanita make up berjilbab make up tebal sejarah make up make up maybeline make up branded make up siang tata cara makeup reseller make up make up muslim make up maybelin warna make up tips make up artist rias make up make up mata make up artis belajar make up make up artist kursus make up kuas make up make up forever indonesia jual make up mac indonesia make up make up artist indonesia harga make up forever jual make up online make up pac make up forever jakarta make up oriflame jual make up forever make up online shop indonesia harga make up sekolah make up grosir make up harga make up maybelline jual make up murah make up terbaru mak up mac make up indonesia sofia make up make up kit murah mac makeup indonesia produk make up jual make up kit make up store indonesia make up forever academy jakarta toko make up online jual make up set jual make up mac make up beauty jual make up branded produk make up mac make up forever harga make up mac indonesia produk make up artis jual make up palette produk make up forever make up palette murah before after make up pengantin before after make up sendiri before n after hasil makeup contoh make up karakter contoh riasan pengantin before n after harga make up wisuda harga make up artist harga make up forever make up wisuda rias wisuda di jogja Daftar harga make up forever daftar harga make up mac daftar harga kosmetik make up forever makeup wisuda harga makeup wisuda kursus make up di yogyakarta kursus make up di jogja kursus make up jogja kursus make up yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di jogja kursus make up artist di jogja kursus rias pengantin di jogja kursus rias di yogyakarta kursus tata rias di yogyakarta rias pengantin muslim jogja jasa kreasi jilbab wisuda yogyakarta jasa rias make up wisuda murah bagus bisa dpanggil tempat make uf di jigja yang bagus rias wisuda murah dan berkualitas yogyakarta pakar kreasi jilbab di jogja make uper natural yogya make up wisuda hijab area jogja make up dan kreasi jilbab yang bagus di jogja jasa make up natural untuk wisuda jogja makeup jogja make up jogja makeup yogyakarta make up yogyakarta makeup wisuda jogja make up wisuda jogja make up wisuda yogyakarta makeup wisuda yogyakarta
Saturday August 13, 2022
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: some pics from the clinic

RE:some pics from the clinic 31 Mar 2010 19:47 #31

No doubt everybody wishes a dressage horse to have a rounded back. But then look closely at this picture. The head and neck position forces the back to hollow. It's up so high most horses won't have an alternative. That's what I said when horses "have a chance to get away with it". Obviously dressage people are not looking for a hollow back, but they run a big chance of their horses carrying themselves like that. And because of the required body position they get away with it.

But this is not against dressage as such. Dressage taught us how to excercise a horse for centuries. It's an explanation of the results of specific shoeing. Not as in "good" or "bad", but just as in "mechanics" :D


Ronald Aalders

p.s. When I learned about horses I was taught in a trot a horse needed to show three even triangles between the front and hind legs and one triangle upside down, in the middle. Notice this dressage horse has a hard time to engage the hind end enough to get to those three even triangles. The lower head and neck of the hunter makes a rounded back a lot easier.
Attachments:
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 31 Mar 2010 20:25 #32

  • Anthony_Lawrence
  • Anthony_Lawrence's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Very Senior Member
  • Posts: 834
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
Ronald Aalders wrote:
No doubt everybody wishes a dressage horse to have a rounded back. But then look closely at this picture. The head and neck position forces the back to hollow. It's up so high most horses won't have an alternative. That's what I said when horses "have a chance to get away with it". Obviously dressage people are not looking for a hollow back, but they run a big chance of their horses carrying themselves like that. And because of the required body position they get away with it.

But this is not against dressage as such. Dressage taught us how to excercise a horse for centuries. It's an explanation of the results of specific shoeing. Not as in "good" or "bad", but just as in "mechanics" :D


Ronald Aalders

p.s. When I learned about horses I was taught in a trot a horse needed to show three even triangles between the front and hind legs and one triangle upside down, in the middle. Notice this dressage horse has a hard time to engage the hind end enough to get to those three even triangles. The lower head and neck of the hunter makes a rounded back a lot easier.

Hi Ron,

It's true that modern competitive dressage has lost its way re use of the back. It's one of my favourite "hobby horses" and as I get to hang around the judging fraternity via the missus, it give me a chance to run amok on the subject. Your photo is a great illustration where the modern sport is going wrong (it's a hot topic atm - e.g. petition presented by Dr Gerd Heuschman et al) and the preponderance of this sort of going gives me ample opportunity to make judges a touch uncomfortable.... (and missus kicks me under the table :D)

As an aside, I shoe for one of the ladies high up in the NZ dressage "establishment" who remarked - "Do you know how weird it is discussing dressage with my farrier?" - LOL

But I digress.

The fact remains that the hollow back is not correct for dressage and as farriers, we should be shoeing to facilitate a round back. For example, the transitions from passage => piaffe => passage are impossible to be performed with any quality with a hollow back (and why we don't see many good ones).
Ant.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 31 Mar 2010 21:09 #33

  • smitty88
  • smitty88's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 6951
  • Thank you received: 64
  • Karma: 13


Some more pics
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 31 Mar 2010 21:11 #34

  • smitty88
  • smitty88's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 6951
  • Thank you received: 64
  • Karma: 13
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 31 Mar 2010 21:13 #35

  • smitty88
  • smitty88's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 6951
  • Thank you received: 64
  • Karma: 13


hind foot
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 01 Apr 2010 03:24 #36

Ronald Aalders wrote:
No doubt everybody wishes a dressage horse to have a rounded back. But then look closely at this picture. The head and neck position forces the back to hollow. It's up so high most horses won't have an alternative. That's what I said when horses "have a chance to get away with it". Obviously dressage people are not looking for a hollow back, but they run a big chance of their horses carrying themselves like that. And because of the required body position they get away with it.

But this is not against dressage as such. Dressage taught us how to excercise a horse for centuries. It's an explanation of the results of specific shoeing. Not as in "good" or "bad", but just as in "mechanics" :D


Ronald Aalders

p.s. When I learned about horses I was taught in a trot a horse needed to show three even triangles between the front and hind legs and one triangle upside down, in the middle. Notice this dressage horse has a hard time to engage the hind end enough to get to those three even triangles. The lower head and neck of the hunter makes a rounded back a lot easier.
I'd rather be riding the top one! I just have to look at that Pleasure horse, and wonder? Where is the Pleasure , in that Artificial, B-S?? Keeping him from going arse -over tea-kettle??
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 01 Apr 2010 03:27 #37

How do you fit a Banana , on that one??
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 01 Apr 2010 03:32 #38

I think the pic of the top horse is collected, In a frame, Bridled, The bottom pic is a horse that couldn't scatter his ****e, if he had to.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 01 Apr 2010 03:40 #39

Ronald Aalders wrote:
No doubt everybody wishes a dressage horse to have a rounded back. But then look closely at this picture. The head and neck position forces the back to hollow. It's up so high most horses won't have an alternative. That's what I said when horses "have a chance to get away with it". Obviously dressage people are not looking for a hollow back, but they run a big chance of their horses carrying themselves like that. And because of the required body position they get away with it.

But this is not against dressage as such. Dressage taught us how to excercise a horse for centuries. It's an explanation of the results of specific shoeing. Not as in "good" or "bad", but just as in "mechanics" :D


Ronald Aalders

p.s. When I learned about horses I was taught in a trot a horse needed to show three even triangles between the front and hind legs and one triangle upside down, in the middle. Notice this dressage horse has a hard time to engage the hind end enough to get to those three even triangles. The lower head and neck of the hunter makes a rounded back a lot easier.
Disect- it any way you want to but, the top pic is a whole better Athlete , than the Peanut-Rolling Pleasure horse. You shoe Top, World level, Reiners, The only time you would want them to look like that, would be in a Slide. Am I Wrong?? Except he would have his *** , gathered up , underneath, him.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 01 Apr 2010 04:16 #40

There are so many body positions in which a horse can slide. I like this type of frame. Here in Europe a couple of years ago there was a Dual Pep son that was even more "level" with the ground. But apparently he overdid it, a coule of shows and he was gone. But would argue the Whiz in the second pic is a poor stopper?

Sofar we as shoers have too little attention for the relation between shoeing and body position. It's important though high time we stopped underestimating it!


Ronald Aalders
Attachments:
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 01 Apr 2010 09:11 #41

Anthony_Lawrence wrote:
As an aside, I shoe for one of the ladies high up in the NZ dressage "establishment" who remarked - "Do you know how weird it is discussing dressage with my farrier?" - LOL


I'm old enough tho have seen Dr. Reiner Klimke perform with Ahlerig. I started out in the horse business as a "dressage kid". Made it up to M which in Holland and Germany in those days did account for at least something. By the ripe age of 18 I started working for a standard bred trotter shoer and never went back to dressage ever. That mostly had to do with the attitude of most dressage people I met in those days. (An attitude I learned from you is still around) None of them was interested in the mechanics behind movement, behind performance. They just took it for granted. If a horse did ok in their perception it was a good horse. If not it was a burrow, or the Dutch equivalent: bok (a male goat)

It was me who spend a couple of times explaining dressage people -some of them well known in fact- explaining that the old adage that a dressage horse should "use" its back was in fact pretty ignorant.

A good dressage horse needs to use it's abdominal muscles instead. The use of back muscles (muscles can only contract and relax, they can not "push" remember?) would hollow the back.

A dressage horse (like any other) needs to engage the abdominal muscles to allow it to move a leg in the first place. Nót the back muscles. The dorsal muscles are needed áfter the foot has been placed on the ground. In the US some call this the Ring of Muscles. Denoix describes this as the dorsal/ventral chain.

Basically this is why the late Dr. Rooney calls a hollow back a dorsi flexed back and not a dorsi extended back like most vets would call it. In a telephone conversation he told me to use dorsi extension if I want to stay out of trouble with know it all vets who think that reciting a text book means knowledge ;). But I've never been a guy who wants to stay out of trouble anyway.


Ronald Aalders
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 01 Apr 2010 09:52 #42

  • Anthony_Lawrence
  • Anthony_Lawrence's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Very Senior Member
  • Posts: 834
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
Ronald Aalders wrote:
I'm old enough tho have seen Dr. Reiner Klimke perform with Ahlerig. I started out in the horse business as a "dressage kid". Made it up to M which in Holland and Germany in those days did account for at least something. By the ripe age of 18 I started working for a standard bred trotter shoer and never went back to dressage ever. That mostly had to do with the attitude of most dressage people I met in those days. (An attitude I learned from you is still around) None of them was interested in the mechanics behind movement, behind performance. They just took it for granted. If a horse did ok in their perception it was a good horse. If not it was a burrow, or the Dutch equivalent: bok (a male goat)

It was me who spend a couple of times explaining dressage people -some of them well known in fact- explaining that the old adage that a dressage horse should "use" its back was in fact pretty ignorant.

A good dressage horse needs to use it's abdominal muscles instead. The use of back muscles (muscles can only contract and relax, they can not "push" remember?) would hollow the back.

A dressage horse (like any other) needs to engage the abdominal muscles to allow it to move a leg in the first place. Nót the back muscles. The dorsal muscles are needed áfter the foot has been placed on the ground. In the US some call this the Ring of Muscles. Denoix describes this as the dorsal/ventral chain.

Basically this is why the late Dr. Rooney calls a hollow back a dorsi flexed back and not a dorsi extended back like most vets would call it. In a telephone conversation he told me to use dorsi extension if I want to stay out of trouble with know it all vets who think that reciting a text book means knowledge ;).

Indeed.

However from the rider's point of view, the trainer is teaching the rider sensations, so lots of erroneous terms are used, particularly in English, to teach the rider the "feel". Sometimes these terms are misleading and ultimately aren't helpful. C'est la vie.

BTW I'm also old enough to have seen Ahlerich... even Granat (Missus trained with Wahl when Granat was at the height of his powers ;)).
But I've never been a guy who wants to stay out of trouble anyway.


Ronald Aalders

Excellent! :D Life is far more interesting that way.
Ant.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 01 Apr 2010 10:51 #43

Anthony_Lawrence wrote:
However from the rider's point of view, the trainer is teaching the rider sensations, so lots of erroneous terms are used, particularly in English, to teach the rider the "feel". Sometimes these terms are misleading and ultimately aren't helpful. C'est la vie.

Thank you, that's a good point. I always wondered about the "back use" talk among dressage people. But that's where it originates obviously. I've always been more of a shoer than a rider I guess :rolleyes:


Ronald Aalders

p.s. For all you Yankees wondering who the f. Reiner Klimke is :D: here's a video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8&feature=related

Note the head position! Notice that Klimke does not think the head should be behind the plumb line at all
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 01 Apr 2010 11:48 #44

  • BPethick
  • BPethick's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Very Senior Member
  • Posts: 579
  • Karma: 0
Ronald Aalders wrote:
Shoeing reiners -QH's- means working with lopers. What a loper needs is help to use its abdominal muscles. Lowering heels makes it harder on a horse to round its back. A straight HPA is vital on a show reiner. Without it he won't stop or turn long enough to get him trained long enough to make it in the big shows. Rob shoes dressage horses. An whole other ball game. A dressage horse gets away with a dorsi flexed back. In fact the required body posture dressage people are looking for forces a horse to hollow its back.

My centering the shoe around the COA has got to do with this too. A short support length and a long breakover length as demonstrated in Rob's shoeing makes breakover harder. Especially in a soft footing because the heels get pushed in the dirt. As a result a horse will hollowing its back to compensate for the more difficult breakover.

The fact that horses in certain disciplines get away with shoeing that do not meet the mechanics that support them in a correct way does not mean that horse is well shod. In fact I can prove that a race horse will be faster when shod with a long breakover lever and a short support length. If I would shoe a race horse like I shoe a reiner that race horse no doubt will be less fast. This all has to do with dorsi flexing the back. But this does not mean its good for a race horse in the long run (no pun intended)

A shoer must know when he shoes a horse in a way that reduces caudal support. But he needs to know why as well. If your mechanics are like Rob's you may need to give it some thought why that works for you. You may find that this has to do with hollowing the back. Because it gives this "nice" flowing/elastic appearance when the horse trots, where what really happpens is that a hollowed back is held from over-flexing by the abdominal muscles.) If that's what your looking for as dressage people are, you need to shoe a horse the way Rob did. Which is fine, this is not about how a horse must be shod, its the result of a particular shoeing that counts. I shoe competitive horses, and I shoe them the way they perform best and keeps them sound as long as possible. Not the other way around. :eek: But again, a shoer needs to know the when and why.


Ronald Aalders

Ron,
Apparently you had already seen this picture that John just posted?


It was not that obvious that the shoe was forward on the foot in this picture. (Although it is now pretty obvious how short the shoe is)



After seeing the solar surface picture I totally agree that the shoe is too far forward and I or John would not have shod the horse (foot) in this manner.
(Covering the heels would have been nice):confused:

I stand corrected.

I was also assuming the toe was rockered at the back of the web. (as seen in Rob's work in the past) Now not sure if that is the case either.

I can certainly understand why John was disappointed.
Bob Pethick CJF AFA #1340
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Only those who have the patience to do things perfectly will acquire the skill to do difficult things easily...
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:some pics from the clinic 01 Apr 2010 12:20 #45

  • ray steele
  • ray steele's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 1042
  • Thank you received: 4
  • Karma: 1
John,

How did the horse travel/perform, before / after the pictured shoeing?

Regards

Ray Steele
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Kunena Birthday Module

  • Appaloosa_64 birthday is today
  • Leonel WhitsittF509 birthday is today
  • MichaelBeckerF992 birthday is today
  • Ferno Garcia53DF birthday is in 363 days
  • jrandolph birthday is in 363 days
  • s-cogan1992 birthday is in 363 days
  • KEMPCOWBOY birthday is in 364 days
  • Mary Farrier birthday is in 364 days
  • Quarterman63 birthday is in 364 days
  • sawalew525124039 birthday is in 364 days
Time to create page: 0.222 seconds

S5 Box

Register

*
*
*
*
*
*

Fields marked with an asterisk (*) are required.