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TOPIC: What does it cost you?

RE:What does it cost you? 12 Mar 2010 16:53 #31

  • Gary Hill
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All good points and whatever floats your personal boat go for it. Everyone has their own experiences to learn from. If I am between horses at a show and setup, I am going to build a pair of bars or liteshod or whatever to stock my rig and be prepared for that unusal client that happens to walk up or call with an emergency. Pulling a handmade not punched off my rack and prepping the foot while it heats to punch is more effective to me than building from scratch or saying ," well let me run to the warehouse and buy a pair and I will nail them on next week!" They take up no more room than any other type shoe? I have a helper that will not buy bulk to save money and he complains about why he can't pick up quality clients ?:rolleyes:
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:What does it cost you? 12 Mar 2010 16:59 #32

  • Gary_Miller
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beslagsmed wrote:
That's the question - how long are those barshoes going to ride around and will you ever use them? If you don't use them, it is wasted money.
That's the reason I don't carry any bar shoes.

beslagsmed wrote:
For me it is better business to build a barshoe on the spot if the horse is going to use it only a time or two, but if the horse needs it all the time, so then buy it as you know the size then.
If I need a bar shoe I just jump weld the bar on a keg shoe in the forge. If its long term or I know before hand then I purchase them.

beslagsmed wrote:
I don't tie up space and money on stuff to ride around.
Same here.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
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"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:What does it cost you? 12 Mar 2010 17:22 #33

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Gary Hill wrote:
If I am between horses at a show and setup, I am going to build a pair of bars or liteshod or whatever to stock my rig and be prepared for that unusal client that happens to walk up or call with an emergency. Pulling a handmade not punched off my rack and prepping the foot while it heats to punch is more effective to me than building from scratch or saying ," well let me run to the warehouse and buy a pair and I will nail them on next week!"
Gary, I agree if your just sitting around then making the shoes seems like a smart idea. As does making them for practice and then putting them in the truck. The point I'm trying to make, and I think most understand, is you can't make them cheaper than you buy them if you include your labor costs.

Gary Hill wrote:
They take up no more room than any other type shoe? I have a helper that will not buy bulk to save money and he complains about why he can't pick up quality clients ?:rolleyes:
I only Kerckhaert standards and Triumphs (Front and Hind), I carry six pairs of each in size, 00-2, a couple of pairs of OOO, 3, 4, 5. I have a supply house which is only a couple of miles out of my way most days so if I need something its no big deal to just stop by and pick it up. The difference in the price per pair is only 20 cents. While thats $3 savings on a box of 15, I find it much easier to just use the supply house as my warehouse and pay the extra cost.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:What does it cost you? 12 Mar 2010 17:48 #34

  • Mike Ferrara
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I'm on both sides of this argument. We can use hard numbers to show how much more cost effective it is to use store boughts. Buying materials in bulk and using machines to fabricate cost less. On a plane-jane shoe, the steel alone can cost you as much as a store bought. We can also show how reducing inventory by making the specials as needed, reducing customer wait and travel etc can make you money.

You can do whatever you want for fun but I think the best money making strategy is somewhere in the middle... provided you have the skills. It costs money to develop the skills and you're going to spend that money one way or the other.

I do both. I buy some and I make some. I make some because I have to and I make some because I want to. I charge quite a bit for the ones I have to make and I charge what I can for the shoes I want to make. I don't think any of it goes to waste.

One of the great things about this business is that you can do it how you like. If your bills are paid and you get enough to eat, you're doing ok. If you're enjoying it, you're doing great.
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RE:What does it cost you? 12 Mar 2010 18:27 #35

The more I read the posts in this thread the more it grieves me. Too many people want or think they need to provide "microwave" products, i.e. ready in minimal time. Who cares if the quality is inferior, it doesn't fit perfectly and the product looks slip shod? Maybe to some of you, particularly those who are not from a family of multi-generational shoers, you don't care if this is the case. Shoeing is a craft, a skilled trade, really an art form. It is age old and used to be one of the most important of occupations. Sorry guys, but store bought compromises all of this. Not only that, but it promotes laziness. Where my horses feet are concerned I know if I were a customer the extra time is worth it. If my feet are killing me and I need orthodics I'm not heading to the nearest pharmacy and picking up a pair of Dr. Scholls. I'll go to a professional podiatrist and have orthodics fitted and specially made to fit my feet and my feet only. There is a tremendous loss of pride in this profession that all too often is lost in the quest for the almighty dollar. Yeah, you may make more money slapping on some pre-fab junk and doing twice as many clients as the guy who makes his own but you will never know the satisfaction that comes from being a true craftsman and caring about giving both the horse and the customer the very best that you can. It's about pride in profession and the difference is like comparing a Strativarius violin to a violin you bought at Costco. True quality in product production is now nearly extinct because of mass production. Don't deep six quality in this industry too by sacrificing quality for quantity. Apprenticeships are important. Time in the forge is important. Hand mades are important. Autograph your work with excellence and be a true craftsman.
Lynne Vecchione IJHU
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RE:What does it cost you? 12 Mar 2010 18:59 #36

  • cuttinshoer
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GiddyapGirl wrote:
The more I read the posts in this thread the more it grieves me. Too many people want or think they need to provide "microwave" products, i.e. ready in minimal time. Who cares if the quality is inferior, it doesn't fit perfectly and the product looks slip shod? Maybe to some of you, particularly those who are not from a family of multi-generational shoers, you don't care if this is the case. Shoeing is a craft, a skilled trade, really an art form. It is age old and used to be one of the most important of occupations. Sorry guys, but store bought compromises all of this. Not only that, but it promotes laziness. Where my horses feet are concerned I know if I were a customer the extra time is worth it. If my feet are killing me and I need orthodics I'm not heading to the nearest pharmacy and picking up a pair of Dr. Scholls. I'll go to a professional podiatrist and have orthodics fitted and specially made to fit my feet and my feet only. There is a tremendous loss of pride in this profession that all too often is lost in the quest for the almighty dollar. Yeah, you may make more money slapping on some pre-fab junk and doing twice as many clients as the guy who makes his own but you will never know the satisfaction that comes from being a true craftsman and caring about giving both the horse and the customer the very best that you can. It's about pride in profession and the difference is like comparing a Strativarius violin to a violin you bought at Costco. True quality in product production is now nearly extinct because of mass production. Don't deep six quality in this industry too by sacrificing quality for quantity. Apprenticeships are important. Time in the forge is important. Hand mades are important. Autograph your work with excellence and be a true craftsman.
Lynne Vecchione IJHU

What is wrong with the quality in this one, it is not completely handmade.
I made it cheaper than you can buy one and faster than you can handmake a complete one.

[ATTACH]13177[/ATTACH]

This horse could barely walk onto the mats and was trotting off when I was done, that is the only thing that matters. Not wether it is a work of art or a piece of junk, it's what the horse thinks of it.
Attachments:
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:What does it cost you? 12 Mar 2010 19:14 #37

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Gary_Miller wrote:
Justin, it takes longer than 7 mins to pull out and set up the the welder, cut the steel to be welded, weld it, then put the welder back.

Two pieces of stock can be cut in less than a minute with a good chop saw, another minute to walk back to turn on the welder and lay the bars in, that leaves five minutes to make 8 small welds. I made the pair posted above two days ago didn't take me very long to weld the bars in them. My welder is in reach of my work area all I have to do is turn it on and grab the gun and weld, any other way would be inefficient.




Gary_Miller wrote:
Crunch your numbers see what you come up with.

I did, at $60 -$100 an hour a ten minute weld in bar shoe would cost $10-$16 in labor plus your keg shoe pair, so the more you charge the better off you would be buying a premade barshoe, if you are going to look at it this way.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:What does it cost you? 12 Mar 2010 19:24 #38

  • Ray_Knightley
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I just got back from my Book keeper...results for 2008.....:(

I just tell myself I am alive ....anything I own is only on loan ...Can`t take anything with you when you go....
Great wife /kids and I love my Job ....
2008 is the past and the figures are a thing of the past ....
I do not live off anybody elses Pocket and can get dirty smelly all day long without having to Kiss anybodies parts behind.....

Thats a gift these days for sure!!!!

Always takes three days to get over the annual meeting ....

Still I am told i should buy a new rig this year:D
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RE:What does it cost you? 13 Mar 2010 03:54 #39

I switched just for me to using 80-90% handmades last year. I was thinking to myself that I got more resets. But My accountant just told me I saved $5000 last year in Expenses. Made me start turning more shoes again today. 3/8 by 1 is my friend:D
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RE:What does it cost you? 13 Mar 2010 07:33 #40

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
I'm on both sides of this argument. We can use hard numbers to show how much more cost effective it is to use store boughts. Buying materials in bulk and using machines to fabricate cost less. On a plane-jane shoe, the steel alone can cost you as much as a store bought. We can also show how reducing inventory by making the specials as needed, reducing customer wait and travel etc can make you money.

You can do whatever you want for fun but I think the best money making strategy is somewhere in the middle... provided you have the skills. It costs money to develop the skills and you're going to spend that money one way or the other.

I do both. I buy some and I make some. I make some because I have to and I make some because I want to. I charge quite a bit for the ones I have to make and I charge what I can for the shoes I want to make. I don't think any of it goes to waste.

One of the great things about this business is that you can do it how you like. If your bills are paid and you get enough to eat, you're doing ok. If you're enjoying it, you're doing great.

I think you summed it up pretty good. Once you get your business going good, then get it figured out how to run it so you make money.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:What does it cost you? 13 Mar 2010 11:01 #41

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GiddyapGirl wrote:
The more I read the posts in this thread the more it grieves me. Too many people want or think they need to provide "microwave" products, i.e. ready in minimal time. Who cares if the quality is inferior, it doesn't fit perfectly and the product looks slip shod? Maybe to some of you, particularly those who are not from a family of multi-generational shoers, you don't care if this is the case.

Who said they don't care about fit or looks? However, time does cost.

Shoeing is a craft, a skilled trade, really an art form. It is age old and used to be one of the most important of occupations. Sorry guys, but store bought compromises all of this. Not only that, but it promotes laziness.

Nonsense. If you are having trouble fitting or modifying keg shoes, you might want to post pics and ask for help or find someone to work with.

Where my horses feet are concerned I know if I were a customer the extra time is worth it. [/QUOTE]

Clients may have more respect for their time than you apparently do.

If my feet are killing me and I need orthodics I'm not heading to the nearest pharmacy and picking up a pair of Dr. Scholls. I'll go to a professional podiatrist and have orthodics fitted and specially made to fit my feet and my feet only. There is a tremendous loss of pride in this profession that all too often is lost in the quest for the almighty dollar. Yeah, you may make more money slapping on some pre-fab junk and doing twice as many clients as the guy who makes his own but you will never know the satisfaction that comes from being a true craftsman and caring about giving both the horse and the customer the very best that you can. It's about pride in profession and the difference is like comparing a Strativarius violin to a violin you bought at Costco. True quality in product production is now nearly extinct because of mass production. Don't deep six quality in this industry too by sacrificing quality for quantity. Apprenticeships are important. Time in the forge is important. Hand mades are important. Autograph your work with excellence and be a true craftsman.
Lynne Vecchione IJHU

Please support your contention that "pre-fab" is necessarily "junk". I suppose everything you buy and use is custom hand made? Is all your furniture, clothes, shoes and household goods custom hand made or is your life stock full of pre-fab junk?
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RE:What does it cost you? 13 Mar 2010 15:29 #42

  • Rick Burten
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GiddyapGirl wrote:
The more I read the posts in this thread the more it grieves me.
Perhaps its because you're not getting enough sunlight this time of year ;)
Too many people want or think they need to provide "microwave" products, i.e. ready in minimal time. Who cares if the quality is inferior, it doesn't fit perfectly and the product looks slip shod?
So you're saying that if it isn't built from bar stock then its really not quality work? ROTFLMAO!

Years ago( and in some instances, even today), there was a contingent within the AFA that held the same attitude. They were wrong then and you are wrong now. As my good friend Bob Peacock observed "Work smarter, not harder".......

And, for the record, I've seen some of those vaunted 'built from scratch' horseshoes that looked plenty cr-appy and didn't fit perfectly.
Maybe to some of you, particularly those who are not from a family of multi-generational shoers, you don't care if this is the case.
Now that is a bunch of misguided, self-serving twaddle
Shoeing is a craft, a skilled trade, really an art form.
Don't forget, its also a science? Or is that fact of no importance to you?
It is age old and used to be one of the most important of occupations. Sorry guys, but store bought compromises all of this. Not only that, but it promotes laziness.
No disrespect meant, but were you sober when you wrote this?
Where my horses feet are concerned I know if I were a customer the extra time is worth it.
Customers care about whether or not their horse is sound and able to perform the jobs the owner has tasked for it. When it comes to the horseshoe, most customers wouldn't know the difference between 'made from scratch' and a keg shoe. Nor should they necessarily have to.
If my feet are killing me and I need orthodics I'm not heading to the nearest pharmacy and picking up a pair of Dr. Scholls. I'll go to a professional podiatrist and have orthodics fitted and specially made to fit my feet and my feet only.
LOL! Ain't it a bytch(sic) when that doctor sells you a pair of Dr. Scholls?
There is a tremendous loss of pride in this profession that all too often is lost in the quest for the almighty dollar.
Spucatum Tauri!
Yeah, you may make more money slapping on some pre-fab junk and doing twice as many clients as the guy who makes his own but you will never know the satisfaction that comes from being a true craftsman and caring about giving both the horse and the customer the very best that you can.
Spucatum Tauri!
It's about pride in profession and the difference is like comparing a Strativarius violin to a violin you bought at Costco.
How many violinists do you think are playing a Stradivarius, particularly one built by Antonio Stradivarius? How many are playing violins made by other people and purchased not at Costco, but at stores selling quality musical instruments? Your attempt to equate manufactured shoes to low quality, is not only distasteful, but its insulting and wrong.
True quality in product production is now nearly extinct because of mass production.
And who is to blame for that?
Don't deep six quality in this industry too by sacrificing quality for quantity.
Here's a heads up for you, We're not...............
Apprenticeships are important. Time in the forge is important. Hand mades are important.
Now that depends on who you ask.
Autograph your work with excellence and be a true craftsman.
Craftsmanship has to do with the man/woman, not the materials.

How about posting some photos of your and your multi-generational family of horseshoes work?
Lynne Vecchione IJHU
From your signature, I take it that you shoe flat runners. You building those aluminum shoes from bar stock? Or, if you're shoeing trotters and pacers, you building every shoe from bar stock?

Better yet, how about standing for the AFA certifications and being successful on your first attempt, including fabricating all the shoes and modifications for the shoe display, from bar stock. For a high stepper such as yourself, that should be a stroll in the park on a mild Sunday afternoon.

Or, stand for the Guild of Professional Farriers certification. There the shoe display is mandatory hand made shoes and you have the choice of hand mades or kegs for the practical. But be prepared, you may draw a horse that requires specialty shoeing and you'll have to be able to provide it(pads, polymers, etc).

Even better, join us in Indiana the end of April for a little get together sponsored by Dan Helton.

Just because I'm curious, are all your tools built from bar stock? How about your shoeing apron? How about the clothes you wear, the vehicle you drive, the bed you sleep on, the chairs you sit on, etc? They all custom fabricated just for you? :rolleyes:

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:What does it cost you? 13 Mar 2010 15:40 #43

  • Mike Ferrara
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Rick Burten wrote:
Just because I'm curious, are all your tools built from bar stock? How about your shoeing apron? How about the clothes you wear, the vehicle you drive, the bed you sleep on, the chairs you sit on, etc?
Rick

I know we have some really good blacksmiths around here but, surely, you couldn't make all that from bar stock.:D
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RE:What does it cost you? 13 Mar 2010 16:14 #44

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
I know we have some really good blacksmiths around here but, surely, you couldn't make all that from bar stock.

Sure you could it'd just be a little heavy and uncomfortable.:D

:cool::cool::cool:
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:What does it cost you? 13 Mar 2010 18:59 #45

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cuttinshoer wrote:
I made it cheaper than you can buy one and faster than you can handmake a complete one.
Wanna bet on that?:cool:;)

[ATTACH]13177[/ATTACH]
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