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TOPIC: What does it cost you?

RE:What does it cost you? 20 Mar 2010 09:59 #136

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
True, but like Mr Stovall I get a heckuva lot more impressed by stuff that runs fast, jumps high or does something with cattle or displays significant athleticism. Rail classes put me to sleep so fail to see the point of having horses do whatever foot wavers do.

I guess it's just what you've been around. I don't sit around watching rail classes or speed events. It would all put me to sleep. I just shoe the horses.

Sounds ok. Not sure what it has to do with wasting money on machine made bars though:confused:

It had to do with with the amount of work.

Nah, that just depends. For guys accustomed to shuffling papers in an office all their lives maybe so. For horseshoers who've been under some horses for a number of years is no big deal. I'd much sooner make shoes all day long than put up hay or dig post holes. Is much harder stuff to do out there.

If I run into somebody who's been shuffling papers all their life, I'll ask them. I started shoeing horses in my early 20's, While I was learning, I did all manor of barn work from mucking stalls, stacking hay and putting up fences to grooming and riding. That all started about 1981. It was some years later that I went back to school and did something else for a while.

Just how in the world is bending over under a horse with butt higher than head easier on anybody's body than working in the fire? Think about it George, that defies all logic.
George

Working at the anvil just makes me hurt in different places than shoeing.

The heat is what bothers me the most. I wouldn't enjoy this business without my powerful electric fan.
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RE:What does it cost you? 20 Mar 2010 13:06 #137

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Mike Ferrara wrote:

It had to do with with the amount of work.

Working at the anvil just makes me hurt in different places than shoeing.

The heat is what bothers me the most. I wouldn't enjoy this business without my powerful electric fan.
Ok Mike,
I know zero, absolutely nothing about that style of shoeing. I've never even seen it done. So let me ask you this. How much does a pair of those kind of shoes cost?

I'll take a SWAG here and say maybe at most an hour to make them?

Most of us in this trade are not into selling shoes, we bill for 100% labor with materials being free. However, there is stuff we use that costs us more money. This is where that keystone thing comes in. In my case a special appliance is billed at my hourly rate as I explained previously.

Now, I don't know or care how you do things (although I'm sure you probably do a little better than cost + a whopping $5;)) but I'm guessing those shoes might cost a bit more than a flat bronco plate right?

I'm also guessing you're getting a bit more profit out of them by making them than by buying otherwise you wouldn't be doing that and hurting your body right?

One distinct advantage you do have is you'll get about 6 resets out of all of them so is not as much materials used compared to other horses.
George
For another fun place to play........
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RE:What does it cost you? 20 Mar 2010 14:16 #138

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
Ok Mike,
I know zero, absolutely nothing about that style of shoeing. I've never even seen it done. So let me ask you this. How much does a pair of those kind of shoes cost?

I'll take a SWAG here and say maybe at most an hour to make them?

Most of us in this trade are not into selling shoes, we bill for 100% labor with materials being free. However, there is stuff we use that costs us more money. This is where that keystone thing comes in. In my case a special appliance is billed at my hourly rate as I explained previously.

Now, I don't know or care how you do things (although I'm sure you probably do a little better than cost + a whopping $5;)) but I'm guessing those shoes might cost a bit more than a flat bronco plate right?

I'm also guessing you're getting a bit more profit out of them by making them than by buying otherwise you wouldn't be doing that and hurting your body right?

One distinct advantage you do have is you'll get about 6 resets out of all of them so is not as much materials used compared to other horses.
George

A pair of Anvilbrand 3/8 X 1 unpunched blanks is about $7 and punched run about $10/pair.

You still have to put quite a bit of work into them. The nail holes always need work and never seem to be where I need them so I've rarely purchased them punched. You usually have to roll the toe, finish the heels, draw or weld on clips etc. The big savings for me is not having to draw out heavy steel by hand.

I make a lot from bar stock just because I'm not locked in. I can make all sorts of shoes from a given size stock. It's a lot more work and a lot of fuel but more versatile with a lower up front investment. I don't buy the fuel until I'm using it and I can always make something from the steel. If I buy a bunch of toe weight blanks, I may end up holding them for a while and that's money that's tied up.

How long it takes really depends. My smoke stack needs replacing so the coal forge is down. The extra heat you can get with coal makes a HUGE difference. I've been doing some in the gas forge and it just...well it sucks.

Another issue is that I just can't get good coal at any reasonable price. I've got a pile of coal out back but it's junk. Not only is a pain trying to keep a decent fire but I have to do something with all the buckets of clinker...a major pain to load up and haul out.

Anyway, what it comes down to is I make some from bar and I buy some blanks. Which I do more of just depends on what kind of work I think I have coming up...and the mood I'm in. If I needed a bunch of shoes in a hurry, I'd buy blanks and maybe even a few pairs of punched.

Naturally I charge more when I'm putting on new shoes. About $50/pair more and that's before I started cutting pads which are also more. But, for the time and work involved, I don't make more. I make my money on resets. I can reset one faster than I can a flat shod horse and I get more money but I just can't charge enough to make out real well (by comparison) setting them up new.

That brings me to one last point and that is that I try to have a fair number of the shoes I expect to need for the season already made up. I try to do that through the winter on days that I don't have anything else to do anyway. I can't afford to stand in front of the forge making shoes if there are horses to shoe. I just make a LOT more money when I'm under a horse.

Closely related to that is that time on the road is premium. I generally go to work and I'm on the road for several days at a time. I want to get them shod and get home for a day or so before I have to hit the road again. I don't want to drive 200 miles and stand in front of a forge making shoes if I can get that done at home. I use a fair number of hand made shoes but I could probably count the number of times I've had to make a shoe at the horse on my fingers...I'm sure I could get them counted if I use my toes too. In the last several years, I've made one pair from bar stock at the horse and there has been a hand full of times when I had to pull out a pair of blanks (some of them I turned from bar) and finish them off on the road. When that happens it's usually because I went fishing or argued with you instead of getting my work done in the shop.

I've got a handful of flat shod horses in hand mades but I always make them up at home. I don't keep an extra pair for each horse like a friend of mine does so I guess there's always the chance that I could get there, find one missing and have to turn a pair.

When I get the bug, I make a handful of even weights in 5/16 X 3/4 (when I can find it at a reasonable price) or 3/8 X 3/4. I toss them in the truck and use them in place of kegs when I get the urge and I don't charge extra for those.
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RE:What does it cost you? 20 Mar 2010 15:54 #139

  • George Geist
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
A pair of Anvilbrand 3/8 X 1 unpunched blanks is about $7 and punched run about $10/pair.
sounds considerably cheaper than Draught sizes and a much better deal than machine made bars.
You still have to put quite a bit of work into them. The nail holes always need work and never seem to be where I need them so I've rarely purchased them punched. You usually have to roll the toe, finish the heels, draw or weld on clips etc. The big savings for me is not having to draw out heavy steel by hand.
Ok, so in your operation turned but not finished or punched works best for you.
I make a lot from bar stock just because I'm not locked in. I can make all sorts of shoes from a given size stock. It's a lot more work and a lot of fuel but more versatile with a lower up front investment. I don't buy the fuel until I'm using it and I can always make something from the steel. If I buy a bunch of toe weight blanks, I may end up holding them for a while and that's money that's tied up.
Excellent point. Is pretty much what I've been saying.
How long it takes really depends. My smoke stack needs replacing so the coal forge is down. The extra heat you can get with coal makes a HUGE difference. I've been doing some in the gas forge and it just...well it sucks.
That does suck. Mine needs work too and is driving me crazy as well.
Another issue is that I just can't get good coal at any reasonable price. I've got a pile of coal out back but it's junk. Not only is a pain trying to keep a decent fire but I have to do something with all the buckets of clinker...a major pain to load up and haul out.
Scoring coal is becoming a bit of a problem everywhere. I'd recommend you join your state affiliate of ABANA. Those guys always seem to have good sources.
Naturally I charge more when I'm putting on new shoes. About $50/pair more and that's before I started cutting pads which are also more. But, for the time and work involved, I don't make more. I make my money on resets. I can reset one faster than I can a flat shod horse and I get more money but I just can't charge enough to make out real well (by comparison) setting them up new.
Just so I'm understanding this right you get $50 more for new than you do for resets? Is that it? Most guys discounts for resets are very small and many guys don't give a discount for that at all. Then again I know nothing about that business or even if that's what you meant. As for the pads I use very few. You use a lot. Whatever I pay for them price gets doubled (on saddle horses anyway) Is same with gaiteds or are pads cheaper because you use more of them? How does that work?
That brings me to one last point and that is that I try to have a fair number of the shoes I expect to need for the season already made up. I try to do that through the winter on days that I don't have anything else to do anyway. I can't afford to stand in front of the forge making shoes if there are horses to shoe. I just make a LOT more money when I'm under a horse.
That's smart and as you should be doing. Is how the Standardbred guys used to do things back when they had a down season.
Closely related to that is that time on the road is premium. I generally go to work and I'm on the road for several days at a time. I want to get them shod and get home for a day or so before I have to hit the road again. I don't want to drive 200 miles and stand in front of a forge making shoes if I can get that done at home.
I'd tend to agree. You seem to put on more miles than most guys though.
I use a fair number of hand made shoes but I could probably count the number of times I've had to make a shoe at the horse on my fingers...I'm sure I could get them counted if I use my toes too. In the last several years, I've made one pair from bar stock at the horse and there has been a hand full of times when I had to pull out a pair of blanks (some of them I turned from bar) and finish them off on the road. When that happens it's usually because I went fishing or argued with you instead of getting my work done in the shop.
Fishing is important. Arguing with me? Come on now I have no monopoly on that. You argue with everybody. You even threw enough "it depends" in this very post to enable you to argue from one side or the other.
I've got a handful of flat shod horses in hand mades but I always make them up at home. I don't keep an extra pair for each horse like a friend of mine does so I guess there's always the chance that I could get there, find one missing and have to turn a pair.

When I get the bug, I make a handful of even weights in 5/16 X 3/4 (when I can find it at a reasonable price) or 3/8 X 3/4. I toss them in the truck and use them in place of kegs when I get the urge and I don't charge extra for those.
Sounds good to me. Wanna join my new I hate Kerkheart club?:cool:
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:What does it cost you? 21 Mar 2010 08:32 #140

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George Geist wrote:
sounds considerably cheaper than Draught sizes and a much better deal than machine made bars.
Ok, so in your operation turned but not finished or punched works best for you.

I don't even know if they have finished toe weights in the catalog. I think they'll make them for you if you want them but I don't know what they cost.

Just so I'm understanding this right you get $50 more for new than you do for resets? Is that it? Most guys discounts for resets are very small and many guys don't give a discount for that at all. Then again I know nothing about that business or even if that's what you meant. As for the pads I use very few. You use a lot. Whatever I pay for them price gets doubled (on saddle horses anyway) Is same with gaiteds or are pads cheaper because you use more of them? How does that work?

On horses shod with most kegs I don't charge extra for new shoes. On the show horses with hand mades it's $50/pair. I charge $20 to cut a pair of pads. For an example, if a horse gets 4 pair of pads and 4 new shoes it's $180 on top of the $225 reset price for a total of $405.
[/QUOTE]

I'd tend to agree. You seem to put on more miles than most guys though. Fishing is important. Arguing with me? Come on now I have no monopoly on that. You argue with everybody.[/QUOTE]

That was said tongue in cheek.

You even threw enough "it depends" in this very post to enable you to argue from one side or the other.

I've said through the whole thread that I can argue for either side because I do both. I make some and I buy some.



Sounds good to me. Wanna join my new I hate Kerkheart club?:cool:
George

I use a lot of sx7 and sx8. Why do you jate Kerkheart?
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RE:What does it cost you? 21 Mar 2010 11:19 #141

  • George Geist
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
I use a lot of sx7 and sx8. Why do you hate Kerkheart?
Because they're foreign. I see nothing about them that's superior to St Croix or Diamond. In fact I think those home grown makers have nicer finishes especially in the heels. That size stamp on the ground surface of them is also ugly. Never having ever used a Kerkheart my question is how and why did they get such a big market share? I would opine that it's due to the copycat nature of most horseshoers thinking they have to use them because it's what everybody else is using. I know this doesn't really have anything to do with what we were talking about so I'll add that another advantage of handmade bar shoes is at least they're American made too:D
George
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RE:What does it cost you? 21 Mar 2010 12:19 #142

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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George Geist in gray, stuff deleted

Never having ever used a Kerkheart my question is how and why did they get such a big market share?

Most likely, because, when they were first imported, they had better nail pattern and a wider web than anything available at the time, plus they came in fronts and hinds, lefts and rights.

I would opine that it's due to the copycat nature of most horseshoers thinking they have to use them because it's what everybody else is using.

Your opinion is contrary to my experience. When Kerckhardts were first imported (c1982?), most farriers with a substantial show/performance custom (especially H/J) were forging every Fe shoe they nailed on. The Kerckhardts and Werkmanns were, quite simply, a helluva lot better shoe than anything else available at the time.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:What does it cost you? 21 Mar 2010 13:09 #143

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Good stuff, this:




Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:What does it cost you? 21 Mar 2010 13:34 #144

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George Geist wrote:
. . . at least they're American made too:D
George
From the Cooper web site;
"Headquartered in Raleigh, North Carolina, Cooper Hand Tools (Diamond Horseshoes) has manufacturing facilities in 16 international locations . . ."

Ya think Mustad is going to keep the St. Croix factory in the US?

From;
http://www.hoofcare.com/st_croix0599.html
"Carlos Xifra, a long-time Mustad manager from Brazil, has been appointed general manager of St. Croix Forge in Minnesota.'

Like that ain't a strategic personnel change . . . what did Mustad do with Simonds?
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:What does it cost you? 21 Mar 2010 13:43 #145

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
Because they're foreign. I see nothing about them that's superior to St Croix or Diamond. In fact I think those home grown makers have nicer finishes especially in the heels. That size stamp on the ground surface of them is also ugly. Never having ever used a Kerkheart my question is how and why did they get such a big market share? I would opine that it's due to the copycat nature of most horseshoers thinking they have to use them because it's what everybody else is using. I know this doesn't really have anything to do with what we were talking about so I'll add that another advantage of handmade bar shoes is at least they're American made too:D
George

I'll admit that I don't compare every shoe on the market on a regular basis but, years ago, all I knew about was diamond and St Croix and the nail holes always sucked.

When I came back to shoeing full time, I was still using those shoes until I was introduced to the Kerks and I liked them better. I'm still using them.

I also remember meeting with Diamond and St Croix reps years ago and telling them what I didn't like but they didn't much care.

I don't necessarily have anything against a product just because it's foreign. I'm looking for the best bang for my buck and it's incumbent upon the seller to make the sale.

We probably do some copycatting. When you're not completely happy with what you're doing and see somebody else doing something that works better, why not copy?
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RE:What does it cost you? 22 Mar 2010 17:10 #146

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It is going to be interesting to see what the cost of health care will be now that you have to buy it. Now I know it will be difficult to give up mine.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:What does it cost you? 22 Mar 2010 23:02 #147

  • Mike Ferrara
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beslagsmed wrote:
It is going to be interesting to see what the cost of health care will be now that you have to buy it. Now I know it will be difficult to give up mine.

First it's going to be interesting to see how all the court challenges turn out. A whole bunch of states are filing suit over the constitutionality of the individual mandate. A bunch of states are also passing or drafting legislation and even state constitutional amendments to block this take over by the fed.

I really doubt that the federal government can actually pull something like this off in this country. In any case, the fight has barely started.
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RE:What does it cost you? 23 Mar 2010 19:29 #148

  • DavidinGA
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beslagsmed wrote:
It is going to be interesting to see what the cost of health care will be now that you have to buy it. Now I know it will be difficult to give up mine.

Mike Ferrara wrote:
First it's going to be interesting to see how all the court challenges turn out. A whole bunch of states are filing suit over the constitutionality of the individual mandate. A bunch of states are also passing or drafting legislation and even state constitutional amendments to block this take over by the fed.

I really doubt that the federal government can actually pull something like this off in this country. In any case, the fight has barely started.

What's interesting to me is how no one heard of the fact that now we will all have to pay taxes on anything our mandated health insurance pays out for us during the course of the year. And that that is one of the aspects slated to start immediately whereas the portions that might actually benefit us don't start for years ( some as late as 2018).

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/bgemw/so_healthcare_has_passed_can_someone/


I really hope that the whole package gets shot down in the court battles.

David
David H. Van Hook
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RE:What does it cost you? 01 Apr 2010 07:57 #149

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Speaking of costs - Because I am a member of the F&HRC Co-Op, while at the Summit this year I bought some stuff from Ray Steele, Horseshoes Unlimited. Come to find out when I got the bill, I got 20% discount, more than the cost of annual dues. From just that one purchase! He gives this discount year round to all F&HRC Co-Op members. Great savings deal.

THANKS RAY.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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