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TOPIC: What does it cost you?

RE:What does it cost you? 18 Mar 2010 19:09 #121

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
Good on you for all that Rick.

That guy before who asked Giddyap Girl if the job was good enough. Like you would say that depends. None of us know what that guy's level of ability is. If that was the best he could do within his level of ability I'd say then it was good. If he could have done a better job then no, it wasn't good enough.

So it's all relative?
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RE:What does it cost you? 18 Mar 2010 19:42 #122

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GregTrem wrote:
George, forgive me if I'm opening up a sore spot, but why are glue-on "unnecessary" shoes? (this is an unloaded, honest question)

I've watched Mike Wildenstein here at Cornell put on dozens of glue ons for horses under some shoeing protocols that varied from maintenance to heavily therapeutic. Do you find them always to be bogus, or just in some cases? or? how come?

Thanks in advance!
Let me put it this way. Guys who specialize in quarter crack repair are oftentimes guys who cause a lot of quarter cracks.

Along that same rationale I don't see much necessity for glue. That is of course unless is for guys who tend to mangle a lot of feet.

Fit shoes properly, keep nails in white line where they belong and feet hold up much better.

Racetrack is a whole different world. Glue is used there to keep horses running that ought to be resting. This is where something that was intended for a good purpose is now misused. For this reason it is and should be charged up the wazoo for.

Pat Reilly might get mad at me for saying so but in 30 years of shoeing I've never had any real need for it.
George
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RE:What does it cost you? 18 Mar 2010 23:38 #123

  • Gary_Miller
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George Geist wrote:
Again on this time thing that you and Gary Miller think is so important. Do you bill for your time, mileage, vehicle depreciation, insurance, retirement, vacations etc for the time wasted driving to the supply warehouse to pick up store bought barshoes? Or if you choose to order them instead do you charge for the extra 24 hours you need to wait for them to arrive? How about charging them for the phone call to order them like a lawyer would do?
I bet not to any of those questions.
Yep, to all the above questions. Its called overhead and is built into my pricing structure. No different than rasps, wire brushes, gloves, propane, etc.. Its all part of overhead costs.

George Geist wrote:
Also, what does it cost your personal reputation to see one needing barshoes but you're unable to give the animal what it needs right then and there but instead must jerk people around by making them wait.
Nothing as I can build them If I want to or jump a bar on a keg shoe. I just prefer to use the keg shoe as its a whole lot simpler and easier to do. In this buisness one needs to work smarter not harder, if they want to stay physically capable of working along time. Thats why I use hoof cradle, change my rasp out when it starts to make me work, use keg shoes, and any other devise that may make my work easier.
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RE:What does it cost you? 19 Mar 2010 03:15 #124

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Gary_Miller wrote:
Yep, to all the above questions. Its called overhead and is built into my pricing structure. No different than rasps, wire brushes, gloves, propane, etc.. Its all part of overhead costs.
With a pricing structure about 15 years behind everybody else and as you stated charge of $20 for a pair of bars which is in many cases less than they even cost, How much do you charge an hour to make people wait? Don't be trying to agree with Rick Burten here because we know from your previous statements is not the case.
Nothing as I can build them If I want to or jump a bar on a keg shoe. I just prefer to use the keg shoe as its a whole lot simpler and easier to do.
No, unlike Linda you use a pre-made cause it's all you CAN do. Big difference there.
In this buisness one needs to work smarter not harder, if they want to stay physically capable of working along time.
That's true, that's why everybody should be working hot shoes. Is easier on the body. Is also nothing hard about making shoes.
Thats why I use hoof cradle,
Hoof cradles are for BUA beeotches and sissies. Learn to hold the leg properly.
George
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RE:What does it cost you? 19 Mar 2010 04:52 #125

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George Geist wrote:
With a pricing structure about 15 years behind everybody else
Right.
George Geist wrote:
and as you stated charge of $20 for a pair of bars which is in many cases less than they even cost,
Current NC Catalog: Kerckhaert Straight Bar - Clipped Size #00, $17.85. #4, 19.00. Iron works are $20.25 for a #4.

And just to clarify I charge the cost of the shoe rounded up to the next whole $5.
George Geist wrote:
How much do you charge an hour to make people wait?
I don't make people wait.:p:eek:
George Geist wrote:
Don't be trying to agree with Rick Burten here because we know from your previous statements is not the case.
Since your so smart why don't you tell us.

George Geist wrote:
No, unlike Linda you use a pre-made cause it's all you CAN do. Big difference there.
What ever you say George, after all for a guy who has never met me. Or seen my work you seem to know a whole lot about what I can and can't do.

George Geist wrote:
That's true, that's why everybody should be working hot shoes. Is easier on the body. Is also nothing hard about making shoes.
While making shoes is not hard. The process of making shoes is hard on the body, and eventually takes it toll. It takes less blows with a hammer to shape a keg shoe than it does to make one. And by the way I work all my shoes hot.

George Geist wrote:
Hoof cradles are for BUA beeotches and sissies. Learn to hold the leg properly.
Then a Sissy I am and will continue to be. I use a hoof cradle only on the hinds, and I do it on every horse. A hoof cradle takes all the weight of the horse off of me, which cannot be replace if broken, and places on a thing, which can be replace if broken.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
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RE:What does it cost you? 19 Mar 2010 08:05 #126

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George Geist wrote:
Let me put it this way. Guys who specialize in quarter crack repair are oftentimes guys who cause a lot of quarter cracks.

Not necessarily.

We all follow up other's work (coming from other stables and whatnot) and for me a few horses with cracks turn up from time to time.

I wouldn't claim to specialize, but I consider that I need to know what I'm doing for when the occasion arises.
Along that same rationale I don't see much necessity for glue. That is of course unless is for guys who tend to mangle a lot of feet.

Fit shoes properly, keep nails in white line where they belong and feet hold up much better.

Racetrack is a whole different world. Glue is used there to keep horses running that ought to be resting. This is where something that was intended for a good purpose is now misused. For this reason it is and should be charged up the wazoo for.

Pat Reilly might get mad at me for saying so but in 30 years of shoeing I've never had any real need for it.
George

Glue ons are a whole 'nuther bowl of wax IMO. I kinda half agree with you here; I've never had to glue one on in anger, but I would never say never.
Ant.
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RE:What does it cost you? 19 Mar 2010 08:37 #127

  • Mike Ferrara
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Originally Posted by George Geist
That's true, that's why everybody should be working hot shoes. Is easier on the body. Is also nothing hard about making shoes.


Gary_Miller wrote:
Right.


While making shoes is not hard. The process of making shoes is hard on the body, and eventually takes it toll. It takes less blows with a hammer to shape a keg shoe than it does to make one. And by the way I work all my shoes hot.

Wow, where did that come from? Is there anything in this business that isn't hard work?

I guess making shoes is hard work which would be why the preferred way to make so many shoes is with a striker swinging a sledge.

George, why don't you make us a stack of toe weights from 1/2 by one and then tell us it isn't hard work. I'm about to go back to buying blanks because my arm is about to fall off.
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RE:What does it cost you? 19 Mar 2010 10:18 #128

  • George Geist
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Gary_Miller wrote:
What ever you say George, after all for a guy who has never met me. Or seen my work you seem to know a whole lot about what I can and can't do.
I know enough by your postings. This is what happens when you talk about yourself constantly. Is quite revealing.

Mike Ferrara wrote:
Wow, where did that come from? Is there anything in this business that isn't hard work?
Messing with glue maybe?:p:rolleyes:

George, why don't you make us a stack of toe weights from 1/2 by one and then tell us it isn't hard work. I'm about to go back to buying blanks because my arm is about to fall off.
I also see no point in that style of shoeing either but to each their own. That's your choice if it's what you want to do. When I get the occasional heavy horse from time to time I handmake them does that count?

I recommend you get a power hammer. At least with that you can do all kinds of other cool stuff.:D
George
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RE:What does it cost you? 19 Mar 2010 10:37 #129

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Anthony_Lawrence wrote:
Not necessarily.

We all follow up other's work (coming from other stables and whatnot) and for me a few horses with cracks turn up from time to time.
Very true. Matter of fact 100% of the ones I've had have all been presented to me already that way
I wouldn't claim to specialize, but I consider that I need to know what I'm doing for when the occasion arises.
Good on you. I learned years ago how to cross lace them with nails. Although there are other ways to get it done that always worked well. Never needed glue for it.
George
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RE:What does it cost you? 19 Mar 2010 11:03 #130

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
I know enough by your postings. This is what happens when you talk about yourself constantly. Is quite revealing.

Messing with glue maybe?:p:rolleyes:


I also see no point in that style of shoeing either but to each their own. That's your choice if it's what you want to do.

What's the point of using horses for anything in this mechanized age? I guess it's mostly for fun or, in the case of the pro, for money.

When I get the occasional heavy horse from time to time I handmake them does that count?

Sure it counts except that there isn't much forging involved in your run of the mill even weight shoe, even if it's a heavy one. I used the example of a toe weight simply because it's one example where you have to move a considerable amount of steel as apposed to just bending.

I say, it's hard work.

I recommend you get a power hammer. At least with that you can do all kinds of other cool stuff.:D
George

I'd love to have one but I'm afraid that's a toy that I can't afford. To justify it as business capital I'm think you'd need to be cranking out more than shoes. If I made my living in the shop full time, I wouldn't be without one.
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RE:What does it cost you? 19 Mar 2010 22:13 #131

Mike Ferrara wrote:
Wow, where did that come from? Is there anything in this business that isn't hard work?

I guess making shoes is hard work which would be why the preferred way to make so many shoes is with a striker swinging a sledge.

Historically apprentices made shoes in various shapes and sizes for the master to use later. This saved wear and tear on the masters body. Its more of a modern AFA thing to make handmade shoes at the horse.
George Spear
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RE:What does it cost you? 19 Mar 2010 22:56 #132

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
What's the point of using horses for anything in this mechanized age? I guess it's mostly for fun or, in the case of the pro, for money.
True, but like Mr Stovall I get a heckuva lot more impressed by stuff that runs fast, jumps high or does something with cattle or displays significant athleticism. Rail classes put me to sleep so fail to see the point of having horses do whatever foot wavers do.
Sure it counts except that there isn't much forging involved in your run of the mill even weight shoe, even if it's a heavy one. I used the example of a toe weight simply because it's one example where you have to move a considerable amount of steel as apposed to just bending.
Sounds ok. Not sure what it has to do with wasting money on machine made bars though:confused:
I say, it's hard work.
Nah, that just depends. For guys accustomed to shuffling papers in an office all their lives maybe so. For horseshoers who've been under some horses for a number of years is no big deal. I'd much sooner make shoes all day long than put up hay or dig post holes. Is much harder stuff to do out there.
I'd love to have one but I'm afraid that's a toy that I can't afford. To justify it as business capital I'm think you'd need to be cranking out more than shoes. If I made my living in the shop full time, I wouldn't be without one.
Well there you go then. Would be handy for those knives you make as well as your toe weights. A few handmade bars you'll have one in no time:)

Dances with Hooves wrote:
Historically apprentices made shoes in various shapes and sizes for the master to use later. This saved wear and tear on the masters body. Its more of a modern AFA thing to make handmade shoes at the horse.
By what history are you referring? If you look into that I believe you'll find it was the opposite. Shoemaking is advanced level work. Firemen were higher on the food chain (and paid accordingly) than floormen. Master was Blacksmith-or proprietor of the shop who may or may not have done very much physical work at all.

Just how in the world is bending over under a horse with butt higher than head easier on anybody's body than working in the fire? Think about it George, that defies all logic.
George
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RE:What does it cost you? 20 Mar 2010 00:06 #133

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Dances with Hooves wrote:
Historically apprentices made shoes in various shapes and sizes for the master to use later. This saved wear and tear on the masters body. Its more of a modern AFA thing to make handmade shoes at the horse.

LOL! Lets see... before pre-made bar shoes, wide web steel shoes, Aluminum Hunter shoes etc.
I had to make them, usually at the horse.
Hmmmm... I didn't realize it is a modern AFA thing...:rolleyes:
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RE:What does it cost you? 20 Mar 2010 02:48 #134

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BPethick wrote:
LOL! Lets see... before pre-made bar shoes, wide web steel shoes, Aluminum Hunter shoes etc.
I had to make them, usually at the horse.
Hmmmm... I didn't realize it is a modern AFA thing...:rolleyes:


me either:D
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RE:What does it cost you? 20 Mar 2010 09:31 #135

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BPethick wrote:
LOL! Lets see... before pre-made bar shoes, wide web steel shoes, Aluminum Hunter shoes etc.
I had to make them, usually at the horse.
Hmmmm... I didn't realize it is a modern AFA thing...:rolleyes:

Back when the horse came to the shop, multi-man shops were common and the guy shoeing the horses wasn't necessarily the guy making the shoes.

In old pictures of those shops, huge racks of pre-made shoes can usually be seen.
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