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TOPIC: What does it cost you?

RE:What does it cost you? 17 Mar 2010 15:37 #106

  • Gary_Miller
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ladyblacksmith wrote:
don't worry; you're not the one with birthday just yet!
Yea, but its just around the corner.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:What does it cost you? 17 Mar 2010 15:55 #107

  • George Geist
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ladyblacksmith wrote:

It's priced at $500+ for any type of hand-mades; and that is for "my time" only; george; and no one asked me to put them on! either.
Comes as no surprise. Seems your pricing strategy toward your targeted market is just a little off. Try $499.99 maybe:rolleyes:
guys here charge $400 for glue-ons here! or $200 a hoof.
and what's that got to do with the price of tea in China? We're talking about bar shoes here not unnecessary BS.
It's different if pre-made barshoes and I do charge more than most guys around here.
They cost entirely too much money. You're screwing yourself not to mention spending your kid's inheritance..
Last one was $170. plain jane. nothing else.
I have 1 client that I charge $100 for barshoes up front/trim behind.
$100 for one heartbar shoe put on that racehorse and
$130 for aluminum KB-N1 eggbar/KB-1T & trim behind for the other lame racehorse at fair hill.
Let me go over this nice and slow so the spectators can fully grasp this. If they cost you $20, your addition to the bill should be no less than $40. If they cost you $30, you should be charging no less than $60. Everybody with me? If you hand make them you can still charge the same without having to shell out those exorbitant sums for overpriced shoes. See the profit potential yet from not being lazy? (Once was a time I'd never tell guys what they ought to be charging. Today there are so many out there who are clueless about the nuts and bolts of their own trade I feel is necessary)

I prefer to figure it by time. A pair of bars is worth a half hour of work. Whether bought or made it should cost about half of a shoeing job. Thus, we see again that the profit potential is much greater in making them than in buying them.

I would agree that regular keg shoes are cheap enough that there is still more profit in buying them. Preshaped and clipped is starting to really push it though, I'm talking regular plain keggars. Not bars though. No way no how. They are entirely too much money
hey, I am not giving my work away..period; and besides; I am way more cuter than Ralph Casey:D

love linda
Certainly can't argue that sister.

mmhorseshoeing wrote:
Gary
Most business do (what is called Keystone) products that is double the cost i
There are certain products I use a triple mark up on, sorry I shoe horses to make a living. And doing it cheap is not what I want to be known for. I want to be Known for doing the best job possible at any given time and the extra cost is for having to carry inventory a cost of doing business.
Exactly. Well said.

Dogwood Forge wrote:
Not a bad point. There is a guy that doesn't live to far from me that has shod horses since he was a teenager. He is still trying to shoe 1 or 2 a day even though he is 63 now. His average price for 4 shoes is from 45 to 65 dollars. He will tell you that to charge more than that is robbery. (That statement is somewhat ironic coming from this guy considering I know many people that he has cheated and stole from over the years, including his own children.)
Sounds typical:rolleyes: Bet his customers love him to death too right?
This guy in his day always worked full time help and did a pile of horses. There is no telling the money he made over the years even working as cheep as he did. Today he is broke. He doesn't own his home, he doesn't have any retirement, he doesn't even have a savings account. Now he is to cripple to really shoe any more. It is a sad case.
Maybe so but maybe not. Sounds like the guy thoroughly and single handedly ruined the work environment around there for a lot of people and left a lousy legacy. Perhaps it's a case of justice.
One of the reasons I started this tread about "how much does it cost you" is because I was looking at last years numbers trying to project for this coming year how much my wife and I could put back for retirement. Your back has only so many horses in it and when you get to that number you are done. You better spend your health and your youth wisely.
Good thinking. Best of luck to you;)
George
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RE:What does it cost you? 17 Mar 2010 16:13 #108

George
I am with you all the way except for when I have to hand make a pair of shoes i add half again as much and sometimes double as the already doubled pre made shoes due to the fact that my labor is very high priced and I am well worth it and if more farriers would learn to charge what they are worth then there would be a lot more of us in the six figure income bracket to help pay out more taxes for the less fortunate.:cool:
In life your work is your signature, try to sign with elegance and grace.
You do not have to be the best just care the most.
John Muldoon
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RE:What does it cost you? 17 Mar 2010 16:49 #109

  • GregTrem
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mmhorseshoeing wrote:
if more farriers would learn to charge what they are worth then there would be a lot more of us in the six figure income bracket to help pay out more taxes for the less fortunate.:cool:

. . . wait. . . is your argument supposed to sway me FOR . . or AGAINST making a lot of money? ;)
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RE:What does it cost you? 17 Mar 2010 17:06 #110

always love to give
In life your work is your signature, try to sign with elegance and grace.
You do not have to be the best just care the most.
John Muldoon
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RE:What does it cost you? 17 Mar 2010 17:45 #111

  • George Geist
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mmhorseshoeing wrote:
George
I am with you all the way except for when I have to hand make a pair of shoes i add half again as much and sometimes double as the already doubled pre made shoes due to the fact that my labor is very high priced and I am well worth it and if more farriers would learn to charge what they are worth then there would be a lot more of us in the six figure income bracket to help pay out more taxes for the less fortunate.:cool:
Good on you for that too then. Figures I quote are a minimum. If you can make more, great.
Other guidelines most guys until recently went by were a trim cost 1/3rd of whatever you got to shoe one. Front only shoeing was worth 2/3rds. Too many guys are pretty clueless about that too now:o
George
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RE:What does it cost you? 17 Mar 2010 18:05 #112

okay george;

Let "me" go over with you one more time. with even numbers! so everyone gets it.

Pre-fab barshoe; cost $20 - $30
Put on the horse: cost $40 - $60 extra

full set shoe horse = $100...............as a figure:eek:
shoe horse in bars = $140 to $160
1 hr. to shoe horse


shoeing with barstock $2.00 a liner foot x 2 = $4.00 in barstock + extra for screw up.
Propane = $22.00
Tools = $200.00 to make the barshoe which you have to have "invested" 1st.
Skill/education/time to make = 30+ minutes at the anvil for 2 handmade barshoes before getting under horse and shoeing for the other hour.
1 1/2+ hrs. time to shoe, trim, and work at the anvil for $140.00?? you will have almost 2 hours before you get paid and leave for your next farm.

I can be putting on another pair of pre-fab barshoes up front/trim hind on the
2nd horse and get paid another $100+. or shoe another racehorse for $135 in about 40 minutes extra.

your way is good..= out to $140.00 ............1 1/2 - 2 hours of work;
but you have to have over $226 invested in stock in order to make 1 pair of handmade barshoes for one client, in what, every 5+ years or so.
This puts you in the negative: $140 - $226 = a neg. $86 out of pocket expenses.

my way is more profitable $140 + $135 = $275........1 1/2 hours of work:
and have only $20 to $30 extra in the expense of the shoes and modified to fit the hoof, properly. this puts me in the positive: $275 - 30 = $245 walk out time profit.

so if I am going to make hand barshoes ......$500......1 1/2+ hours of work
for the craftmanship and time to build it.

any questions, let me know. there is another more direct way to explain it.

linda
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RE:What does it cost you? 17 Mar 2010 18:16 #113

  • George Geist
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ladyblacksmith wrote:
any questions, let me know. there is another more direct way to explain it.

linda
Yes, I'm glad there's another more direct way to explain it because I fail to see the logic in this. So please do explain.:confused:
George
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RE:What does it cost you? 18 Mar 2010 12:40 #114

George Geist wrote:
Yes, I'm glad there's another more direct way to explain it because I fail to see the logic in this. So please do explain.:confused:
George

once again folks:

racehorse = $100...............for an even figure:rolleyes:

cost to shoe 3 racehorses in 1 hr. = $300.00

you spend making extra shoes in the fire.....you are losing every 20 mins. $100. out of pocket expense.

So to make hand made bars shoes should be costing as much as glue-ons.

Ex: that why glueing on is so expensive not only the material but the "TIME" put into it is why guys are charging $400 for up fronts.

waiting on the vet to tranq. = 20 mins which = $100 you cost to wait around.
glue on fronts = 30 minutes per hoof for everything involved.
that = $300 for the 3 racehorses you could have plated.
this all equals out to $400.00 for front glue on shoes.
this is with out the exception of the materials it cost to glue.

same principle applies to making hand mades. that is why the $500 cost to put on hand made barshoes.

work smarter, not harder.

there is a saying that there is a place for everything. and there is when it comes to hand made barshoes on specialty cases; which it was designed for.

linda muggleworth, iujh
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RE:What does it cost you? 18 Mar 2010 12:42 #115

Gary_Miller wrote:
Yea, but its just around the corner.

mine is too!!! in april:)
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RE:What does it cost you? 18 Mar 2010 14:15 #116

  • George Geist
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ladyblacksmith wrote:


shoeing with barstock $2.00 a liner foot x 2 = $4.00 in barstock + extra for screw up.
Need no extra. Isn't going to be any screw up.
Propane = $22.00
Why so much? That's a whole tank! Should take no more than 1/2 hr. Propane you ought to be burning every day anyway so is a fixed cost of operation.
Tools = $200.00 to make the barshoe which you have to have "invested" 1st.
Skill/education/time to make = 30+ minutes at the anvil for 2 handmade barshoes before getting under horse and shoeing for the other hour.
Ok, here's where your losing me. What extra tools are you talking about? The skills, education and time thing you should already have before you hang your shingle but what $200 worth of tools and equipment are you talking about?
1 1/2+ hrs. time to shoe, trim, and work at the anvil for $140.00?? you will have almost 2 hours before you get paid and leave for your next farm.
As you've been told before they ought to be made up first at home if you're in that much of a hurry.
so if I am going to make hand barshoes ......$500......1 1/2+ hours of work
for the craftmanship and time to build it.
And by your own admission nobody's ever paid you that. I'd be inclined to believe your pricing is not as much to make profit as much as to get you out of doing it.:p



ladyblacksmith wrote:
once again folks:

racehorse = $100...............for an even figure:rolleyes:

cost to shoe 3 racehorses in 1 hr. = $300.00
Too cheap:rolleyes:
you spend making extra shoes in the fire.....you are losing every 20 mins. $100. out of pocket expense.
Nonsense. I've seen guys make shoes faster than a lot of guys get them done with kegs. I saw harness shoers make 4 hand swaged with front bars nailed up and finished in under an hour.
Thing I wonder is why this time thing is such an issue to folks who only do at most 2 or 3 a day:rolleyes:
So to make hand made bars shoes should be costing as much as glue-ons.
Glue ons have no relevance because their unnecessary and shouldn't be used at all by most people. Discussion is bar shoes.
waiting on the vet to tranq. = 20 mins which = $100 you cost to wait around.
And this needs to be done always each and every time?


Again on this time thing that you and Gary Miller think is so important. Do you bill for your time, mileage, vehicle depreciation, insurance, retirement, vacations etc for the time wasted driving to the supply warehouse to pick up store bought barshoes? Or if you choose to order them instead do you charge for the extra 24 hours you need to wait for them to arrive? How about charging them for the phone call to order them like a lawyer would do?
I bet not to any of those questions.

Also, what does it cost your personal reputation to see one needing barshoes but you're unable to give the animal what it needs right then and there but instead must jerk people around by making them wait. In these highly competitive times this is how business is lost. This not only provides a poor service but messes up your own schedule causing a 2nd trip and wastes another day. If you don't find yourself replaced.
That's lousy business
George
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RE:What does it cost you? 18 Mar 2010 14:27 #117

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Hi George,

I'd like to answer these important questions

George Geist wrote:
Do you bill for your time, mileage, vehicle depreciation, insurance, retirement, vacations etc for the time wasted driving to the supply warehous4e to pick up store bought barshoes?
Yes, either as a separate item or previously built into the fee I charge.
Or if you choose to order them instead do you charge for the extra 24 hours you need to wait for them to arrive? How about charging them for the phone call to order them like a lawyer would do?
I bet not to any of those questions.
With me, the answer is yes, see above.
Also, what does it cost your personal reputation to see one needing barshoes but you're unable to give the animal what it needs right then and there but instead must jerk people around by making them wait.
I have never had that happen in my custom. Just as I carry a selection of keg shoes, so I carry a selection of bar shoes. And in the unlikely event that I don't have exactly what I need, I have a wire welder, or I can jump a bar into a shoe or, I can build one from bar stock which I also carry.:)
In these highly competitive times this is how business is lost. This not only provides a poor service but messes up your own schedule causing a 2nd trip and wastes another day. If you don't find yourself replaced.
George
That's lousy business
You have jumped to the [erroneous IMO] conclusion(s) that any or all of those conditions exist in any given farrier's custom. Poor business practices are that, poor business practices and it has little to do with whether or not one can forge a bar shoe or carries pre-mades or anything of the like.

So, since in my custom I have at least four ways to provide a bar shoe for any given client, How would you say I am not providing a 'custom' service to those who choose to avail themselves of my talents or lack thereof?

Rick
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RE:What does it cost you? 18 Mar 2010 14:48 #118

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Rick Burten wrote:
Hi George,

I'd like to answer these important questions


Yes, either as a separate item or previously built into the fee I charge.

With me, the answer is yes, see above.

I have never had that happen in my custom. Just as I carry a selection of keg shoes, so I carry a selection of bar shoes. And in the unlikely event that I don't have exactly what I need, I have a wire welder, or I can jump a bar into a shoe or, I can build one from bar stock which I also carry.:)
Good on you for all that Rick.
You have jumped to the [erroneous IMO] conclusion(s) that any or all of those conditions exist in any given farrier's custom. Poor business practices are that, poor business practices and it has little to do with whether or not one can forge a bar shoe or carries pre-mades or anything of the like.

So, since in my custom I have at least four ways to provide a bar shoe for any given client, How would you say I am not providing a 'custom' service to those who choose to avail themselves of my talents or lack thereof?

Rick
Rick we might agree about some things and disagree about others. One thing I would NEVER think about you is that you would ever let any horse go without EXACTLY what you thought it needed at the time. In short, I know you know the job and how to maximise your profits.

That guy before who asked Giddyap Girl if the job was good enough. Like you would say that depends. None of us know what that guy's level of ability is. If that was the best he could do within his level of ability I'd say then it was good. If he could have done a better job then no, it wasn't good enough.

I pick on Linda in this thread for her being lazy and I know she's better than that;) Is all about putting forth a best effort.
George
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RE:What does it cost you? 18 Mar 2010 15:01 #119

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
Why so much? That's a whole tank! Should take no more than 1/2 hr. Propane you ought to be burning every day anyway so is a fixed cost of operation.

Propane is a variable cost. The more you use it the more it cost...as apposed to something like a mortgage which is fixed. Regardless of how much work you do in the facility, the mortgage is fixed.

Nothing wrong with making shoes and sometimes there might not even be a choice but it's more work. Even with just a turned blank, it's that much that's already done.

Generally mass production is more efficient and more cost effective. But, when a "one of a kind" is needed it's more cost effective to build it by hand because you don't have the cost of tooling up for mass production. The kicker is that one of a kind production is really expensive if you aren't proficient and it takes more time and materials than it should. That's something of a trade-off. You can't do it if you aren't any good and you can't be any good if you don't do it...and doing it is work and money.
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RE:What does it cost you? 18 Mar 2010 18:44 #120

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George, forgive me if I'm opening up a sore spot, but why are glue-on "unnecessary" shoes? (this is an unloaded, honest question)

I've watched Mike Wildenstein here at Cornell put on dozens of glue ons for horses under some shoeing protocols that varied from maintenance to heavily therapeutic. Do you find them always to be bogus, or just in some cases? or? how come?

Thanks in advance!
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