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TOPIC: International Hoof-care Summit?????

RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 08:18 #46

  • Ray_Knightley
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Rick Burten wrote:
Ray_Knightley;192776 wrote:

That shoe was burned on one time for a slow 14 count and then again for a 9 count. Foot looked pretty crisp to me at the end. :eek:

Is it standard practice to use three clips on a front shoe?

Rick

I was not shooting against any land....Belgium has (little Know)about the best Intact Horse Industy in Europe...
Thats the sort of burn that some of the guys I used to work for would do...Must Note they would keep the shoes on about 5 months .

The 3 clips could have been because of all the flares on those hooves ..I would think...

I used to shoe with two clips on that size Horse One Toe and One Lateral ,but not too far back ....they where used for pulling trees out of forest areas with steep hill ground ...big studs etc aswell..
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 08:54 #47

  • Mike Ferrara
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DeniseMc wrote:
Mike,
From the summary of the study: "The hoof dampened the vibrations transmitted to the first phalanx. Shoeing decreased the viscous dampening and increased the median power frequency and the maximal amplitude of the vibrations transmitted to the first phalanx."

What kind of shoeing? What is "median power"? Why should we care if the frequency of "median power" increased?

It's hard to say exactly what they mean by "viscous dampening" but I call BS. The hoof has a transfer function. The shoe has a transfer function. The spectrum measured beyond shoe and hoof will be what's left of the input signal after having been run through all those transfer functions.

"Transfer function" is the output divided by the input in the frequency domain.

They should get someone involved who knows something about this stuff.


The rest is a real gem too.
The pressure dropped during the stance phase, indicating expansion of the hoof. The expansion of the hoof was not produced by frog or sole weight bearing because this would have increased the intra-digital cushion pressure. The pressure theory of hoof function must presumably therefore be rejected. Shoeing the horses augmented the intra-digital cushion pressure drop and probably impaired the movements of the hoof wall.

It says the pressure drop was because of hoof wall expansion? Then it says there was more of a pressure drop when shod? If their first statement is correct that would mean that the shoe let the wall expand more...not less.

It might be interesting to see the whole paper but the abstract leaves a lot to be desired.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 09:25 #48

  • Rick Burten
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Clint Burrell wrote:

How does one go about measuring the energy transmitted to the bones in the leg of a live horse?
Clint,
One article stated "Two horses were trotted by hand over a force plate. Recordings of 3-D kinematics of the distal forelimb were carried out by use of a 240 Hz video system. Tri-axial accelerometer data were collected from a bone-mounted accelerometer on the midlateral side of the third metacarpal bone (McIII) and from another accelerometer attached to the lateral side of the hoof."

Another article(abstract dated 1994) stated in part: "The dampening of hoof impact was investigated by measuring the accelerations transmitted through structures of the hoof in horses trotting freely on an asphalt tarmac. .........The pressure inside the digital cushion of the foreleg was recorded."

The Abstract does not say how the measurements were undertaken.

The last article/abstract does not mention at all how the results were obtained. In aggregate, the studies used words such as "proposed", "probably, "potentially", "implicated", "estimated", "presumably"........

One study involved only two horses.....

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 10:34 #49

  • Mike Ferrara
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Rick Burten wrote:
Clint Burrell;192800 wrote:
In aggregate, the studies used words such as "proposed", "probably, "potentially", "implicated", "estimated", "presumably"........

One study involved only two horses.....

Rick

The good news is that since these studies are from across the pond, we might not have been forced to pay for them.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 12:46 #50

  • tbloomer
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
They should get someone involved who knows something about this stuff.
They did: ;)

Jeff Thomason, PhD
Department of Biomedical Sciences
Ontario Veterinary College
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 12:53 #51

  • Mike Ferrara
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tbloomer wrote:
They did: ;)

Jeff Thomason, PhD
Department of Biomedical Sciences
Ontario Veterinary College

The "they" I was referring to was the authors of the abstract I commented on.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 14:32 #52

  • Mike Ferrara
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DeniseMc wrote:
"They":
Equine hoof function investigated by pressure transducers inside the hoof and accelerometers mounted on the first phalanx.
Dyhre-Poulsen P, Korsgaard: Dept of Medical Physiology, The Panum Institute University of Copehagen
Smedegaard HH: Dept of Clinical Studies, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University Denmark
Roed J: Department of Industrial Acoustics, Institute of Manufacturing Engineerng Technical University of Denmark

Right. My question stands.

Point is, one could probably find any study that supports or refutes ones viewpoints. It never hurts to pick apart or question the protocols of how any studies are conducted, or the conclusions that are drawn; it's called critical thinking.

It needn't be that subjective and wouldn't be if it were framed in objective terms.

Again, a transfer function is the frequency domain output divided by the input. A somewhat straight forward measurement and mathematical calculation.

The question here is, or should be, what is the transfer function of the shoe (package) and how does it effect the horse. Another wording might be...what effect does the shoe package have on the transfer function of the package/hoof system and what are the effects on the horse?


The vibration analysis part of this is all well understood stuff but it appears that those doing the these studies are trying to re-invent it.

Of course, a horse trying to walk on a bloody stump for lack of a shoe need not be concerned with vibration.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 14:49 #53

  • tbloomer
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A critical thinker could start by acknowledging the difference between a study done on asphalt to a study done on a groomed race track. ;)

Thomason went back and measured the GRF of the track itself.

Perhaps one should account for the acoustic damping signature of coupled and uncoupled materials of dissimilar density.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 14:56 #54

  • Mike Ferrara
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DeniseMc wrote:
Mike,
I don't think your analogy of someone whacking a tree trunk with and without a hammer head compared to a horse's hoof shod vs barefoot and impact shock is entirely valid. What's missing is the function of the hoof-energy dissipated before it reaches the muscluoskeletal system through reversible deformation of the unshod hoof, and no resonant frequencies from the shoe itself.

That example was just meant to illustrate a principle. It's certainly not a useful model of a horses hoof.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 15:07 #55

  • Mike Ferrara
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tbloomer wrote:
A critical thinker could start by acknowledging the difference between a study done on asphalt to a study done on a groomed race track. ;)

Thomason went back and measured the GRF of the track itself.

Knowing the tranfer function of the hoof or hoof shoe combincation tells you that provided the transwer function was measured using an input of sufficient energy in the frequency range of interest.

Having the transfer function enable you to calculate the output if you have the input. Input X transfer function = output. Having any two of the three, you can calculate the third. You don't have to re-measure for all imputs.

The only remaining question would be, what is the difference in the input from one source to the other.

Perhaps one should account for the acoustic damping signature of coupled and uncoupled materials of dissimilar density.

Ham and eggs stuff though density isn't the only relevant attribute. Other material properties as well as geometry and the nature of the coupling will have a great effect. No two shoes or hooves will be exactly alike. Take a bunch of different shoes, hand them from a string and tap them with a hammer. You'll hear the difference in transfer function that falls in the audible range....or the old playing a tune by tapping glasses of water filled to various levels.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 15:14 #56

  • tbloomer
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
The vibration analysis part of this is all well understood stuff but it appears that those doing the these studies are trying to re-invent it.
Mike, this stuff is well understood by those who have studied vibration, shock, acoustics, and propagation of such in various materials.

I'm surprised that nobody has dismissed Thomason's work on the basis that he has no tenure as a farrier, only wants to show everybody how smart he is, and lacks the ability to communicate in the "real world."
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 15:15 #57

  • tbloomer
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Ham and eggs stuff though density isn't the only relevant attribute. Other material properties as well as geometry and the nature of the coupling will have a great effect.
You left out salt, pepper, and Tabasco! :D
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 15:25 #58

  • Mike Ferrara
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tbloomer wrote:
Mike, this stuff is well understood by those who have studied vibration, shock, acoustics, and propagation of such in various materials.

Exactly.

I'm surprised that nobody has dismissed Thomason's work on the basis that he has no tenure as a farrier, only wants to show everybody how smart he is, and lacks the ability to communicate in the "real world."

It doesn't have anything to do with his tenure. The results stand up to scrutiny or they don't.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 15:49 #59

  • tbloomer
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Exactly.

It doesn't have anything to do with his tenure. The results stand up to scrutiny or they don't.
Mike,

Scrutiny by whom? ;)

You're writing in passive voice. (That's not a put down. Lawyers do this all the time. :cool:)
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 15:57 #60

  • cuttinshoer
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tbloomer wrote:
on the basis that he has no tenure as a farrier, only wants to show everybody how smart he is


:cool::cool::cool:
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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