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TOPIC: International Hoof-care Summit?????

RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 12 Feb 2010 06:44 #31

Chris Gregory wrote:
Any other questions, I would be happy to respond to. I have been shoeing hot since August of 1990, and have yet to have a horse damaged from the process that I know of. Add to that the fact that I have been teaching beginners how to hot shoe since January of 1991, and there also, have not had a problem. This indicates to me that hot fitting is not dangerous or damaging when done correctly. Hope that helps, and thanks again.


Guys, hot shoeing has been done for CENTURIES, not mere years. Rumour has it that trimming was not that popular centuries ago (BIG horses with BIG feet) so burning the shoe in place was more popular than trimming.

I did some research on this with the help of an infrared thermometer. The bottom line corresponds with previous posts. A blue hot shoe needs to be held in place way longer and heats up the foot way higher than a cherry red shoe that only needs to be pushed a short while to ensure a good fit.

A word of advice when fitting really hot shoes like I'm known to do. Don't rely on the "all brown" surface of the foot. A really hot shoe can burn a foot brown real nice without touching.........


Ronald Aalders
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 12 Feb 2010 11:01 #32

  • tbloomer
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beslagsmed wrote:
. . . Thursday, staying wide awake when biomechanics was presented by the guy from Canada.
Jeff Thomason's presentation on shock, vibration, impact, load measurements in vivo has the potential to bite the BUA dogma.

Seems that the same horse, same track, same day - had lower measured shock values when shod vs. barefoot.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 12 Feb 2010 12:49 #33

  • Mike Ferrara
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tbloomer wrote:
Jeff Thomason's presentation on shock, vibration, impact, load measurements in vivo has the potential to bite the BUA dogma.

Seems that the same horse, same track, same day - had lower measured shock values when shod vs. barefoot.

That's what I've been telling you folks all along. Anything you place between the foot and the ground is going to act as a filter. It can't add energy to the situation unless it has a motor on it or something. LOL
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 12 Feb 2010 13:16 #34

  • Mike Ferrara
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DeniseMc wrote:
This has been discussed before. There was another study done by Poulsen et al where energies transmitted directly to the P1 were measured. Shod hooves had higher energies transmitted to the bones than barefoot.

It's a waste of time to talk in terms of total energy. A filter (the shoe and/or pads) acts as a filter and can't add energy. However, it can attenuate some frequencies more than others and even concentrate energy into certain frequency ranges if the applied signal (shock) has significant energy content in the resonant frequency of the filter (the shoe).

Take a baseball bat or a sledge hammer handle and whack a tree trunk. It hurts don't it? Now put the hammer on the end of the handle and notice that it doesn't hurt. Why do you think that is?

Not that it's a surprise, but the right questions aren't being asked here.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 12 Feb 2010 14:56 #35

  • Rick Burten
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Take a baseball bat or a sledge hammer handle and whack a tree trunk. It hurts don't it? Now put the hammer on the end of the handle and notice that it doesn't hurt. Why do you think that is?
As the official spokesperson(we are PC after all) for PAHA(People Against Hammer Abuse), I fell it imperative to point out that using a hammer in the described manner goes against all recommendations and puts the abuser in volation of U.S. Code 4023559612, Section Z. To wit: "Anyone found to be in violation of this code is subject to a fine, and mandatory public humiliation and disrespect. The means for accomplishing said humiliation and disrespect shall be throught the use of the pillory in the public square. Spectators are encouraged to visit upon the person of the miscreant, copious amounts of rotting vegetables and other garbage." ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCeD_6Y3GQc (The official anthem of PAHA)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 12 Feb 2010 14:57 #36

  • Rick Burten
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tbloomer wrote:
Jeff Thomason's presentation on shock, vibration, impact, load measurements in vivo has the potential to bite the BUA dogma.

Seems that the same horse, same track, same day - had lower measured shock values when shod vs. barefoot.

Further confirmation of earlier work conducted by Dr. Thomason that was presented several years ago at the Summit.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 12 Feb 2010 18:35 #37

  • Mark_Gough
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Chris Gregory wrote:
...Here is some clarification..., For the rocker toe part, I rasp the bevel into the foot during the trim, then just touch the foot with the hot shoe to show me where I need to remove hoof to make a perfect fit. Much like I would use a hot shoe to mark where I needed to cut for a clip fit. Once I had removed the hoof wall, I would hot fit as normal. It is like fitting a big clip with my rasp instead of my knife.
"

Chris, thank you for explaining this in more detail. Your presentations at the summit were greatly appreciated and it was a pleasure to finally meet you in person.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 12 Feb 2010 22:18 #38

  • Anthony_Lawrence
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tbloomer wrote:
Jeff Thomason's presentation on shock, vibration, impact, load measurements in vivo has the potential to bite the BUA dogma.

Seems that the same horse, same track, same day - had lower measured shock values when shod vs. barefoot.

Please please more info on this. Is there a paper somewhere I can read, link... anything?

This is huge anti-propaganda material.
Ant.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 12 Feb 2010 22:49 #39

  • Ray_Knightley
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
Guys, hot shoeing has been done for CENTURIES, not mere years. Rumour has it that trimming was not that popular centuries ago (BIG horses with BIG feet) so burning the shoe in place was more popular than trimming.

Like this Ron?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQOMdZqMQ7g
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 00:19 #40

  • Rick Burten
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Ray_Knightley wrote:

That shoe was burned on one time for a slow 14 count and then again for a 9 count. Foot looked pretty crisp to me at the end. :eek:

Is it standard practice to use three clips on a front shoe?

Rick
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In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 00:31 #41

  • Rick Burten
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DeniseMc wrote:
Anthony,
Thomason's studies that he presented are unpublished.
Here's some studies that are published:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7988538
There appear to me to be some flaws in the conclusions drawn.[/quote]
Since neither of these studies included shoeing as a parameter, any conclusions drawn referencing shoeing are tenuous as best.

None of these studies indicate whether or not the other structures involved in shock dissipation were able to handle the purported increase in shock wave transmission or not. Nor did they test to obtain results on surfaces other than asphalt, which is, relevant.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 00:34 #42

  • Jaye Perry
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DeniseMc wrote:
Mike,
From the summary of the study: "The hoof dampened the vibrations transmitted to the first phalanx. Shoeing decreased the viscous dampening and increased the median power frequency and the maximal amplitude of the vibrations transmitted to the first phalanx."
Also in the study: "Benoit et al (1993) mounted accelerometers directly on the hoof wall and therefore primarily measured the physical impact on the hoofwall and not the dampening of vibrations transmitted to the bony parts of the limb. We believe that our approach is more suited to estimate load on the musculoskeletal system and therefore better elucidates the functional intricacies of the hoof". (I imagine Benoit's study was similar to Thomasons)


HELLO!

Here are the rules:

Farriers Helping Farriers
This is where farriers can interact with other farriers from all over the place. If you are not a farrier or veterinarian, please DO NOT post in the Farriers Helping Farriers forums. You are welcome to post in the Farriers Helping Horse Owners forums.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 00:37 #43

  • Jaye Perry
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DeniseMc wrote:
Anthony,
Thomason's studies that he presented are unpublished.
Here's some studies that are published:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7988538


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11721549

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9622318

SEE STATED RULES.



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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 02:55 #44

  • Clint Burrell
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DeniseMc wrote:
This has been discussed before. There was another study done by Poulsen et al where energies transmitted directly to the P1 were measured. Shod hooves had higher energies transmitted to the bones than barefoot.

How does one go about measuring the energy transmitted to the bones in the leg of a live horse?
Clint Burrell

"You say your from collage,
but you don't seem to bright.
You just brought a swichblade
to a pistol fight"
Move On by Chris Knight
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 13 Feb 2010 07:33 #45

Rick Burten wrote:
Ray_Knightley;192776 wrote:

That shoe was burned on one time for a slow 14 count and then again for a 9 count. Foot looked pretty crisp to me at the end. :eek:

Is it standard practice to use three clips on a front shoe?

Rick


I think the shoer felt like supporting the somewhat flaring wall. By the way do not underestimate the forging skills of some of the Belgian shoers. Some of them are awesome. I had the honor to judge a competition where one of the tasks was making a new shoe out of one and a half old shoe.

You take 3 shoes, fold two of them sickle shaped kinda leave some space between the halves of each shoe. In that space you put half of the other shoe bang it together and weld that one and a half shoe to -in this case- make what we call a cavalry shoe out of it. That would be a pretty regular shoe but with 16 nailholes to accommodate shoers working on poor feet)

The winner was a guy from Belgium and what a fine shoe he made. Really awesome. I never understood why you don't see more guys from Belgium in International competition.


Ronald Aalders

p.s. Obviously this technique was carried forward from days steel was rare and expensive. During WOII only the best shoers were able to do this, but more and more had to learn.......
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