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TOPIC: International Hoof-care Summit?????

International Hoof-care Summit????? 06 Feb 2010 22:28 #1

  • Ray_Knightley
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Please do tell ,and show:)
For us who sadly could not take part.....;)
being not single and childless:D..

HOW WAS IT FOR YOU?????????
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 07 Feb 2010 00:00 #2

  • Rick Talbert
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I for one really enjoyed all of the presentations, but those that really made me think of the hoof differently were those presentations by Dr Noel Muller, Randy Luikart, Ric Redden, and Pat Reilly. Any simplistic summary of these talks, would if given by my own account, truly do these gentlemen an injustice, as I am still wrapping my brain around some of the information.
I was amazed by Pat's force plate readings on the hoof that was landing on the lateral side. I would have lost the farm betting that there would be much more concussive force and weight bearing on the medial side than what actually was occuring in that particular horse. Also the lack of force on the landing hoof as the horse went over the jump was surprising. The movement of P3 when the commisures of the frog are packed with IM vs not packed. The emphasis by Luikart on preserving the integrity of the dorsal wall on laminitic horses. Use of the plastic W shoe was great. We saw the movement of P3 when we dress back the toe through the pigmentation aggressively. The importance of the toe on hind hooves. Thank goodness we also heard a great talk from Noel Muller that touched on what happens when we wedge up the heels on these SL injuries. Redden had several one liners that were just golden. We learned more about reading rads from Redden too and that was helpful. We looked at cases wherein the bone column had descended downward within the hoof capsule. I think this happens more often than I have previously thought. We heard more on frog support. We looked at and discussed horses that had lost depth in the digital cushion, hooves w. neg. palmar angles, club feet and shoulder angles, etc etc ect. . Pat's shoe board from the 1800's (?) had a "founder shoe" in it that was very very interesting. And Monique Craig had photos of I think the same horse's hoof that had been shod or trimmed over a period of time with different shoes and trims and one of them looked an awful lot like an NBS shoe amazing how the hoof capsule will take on that shape. And so much more, I am just listing things as they hit my brain, but there was a lot of excellent info being presented.:)
Rick Talbert
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 07 Feb 2010 23:22 #3

  • Alicia Thompson
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Well I went, had a great time other than having an insane person for a roomie. Total wack job....

Unlike Rick Talbert I really hated the Dr Noel Muller, Randy Luikart presentations. I found lots of farriers hated the presentation by these two.

They kept talking about "coffin bone displacement" (sinking) and trying to say it was unrelated to laminitis and founder even though the lamina were inflamed....well sorry but if the lamina are inflamed and the boney column sinks I believe there is a link between the weakened lamina and the sinking!


I really enjoyed the rest of it especially Ric Reddin, Dr Thomason, Dr O'Grady, Chris Gregory.... really all the presentations but the one about distally displaced coffin bones.

Oh and man I got lots of great samples, and ordered a super cool hammer from Gray Mapston. As soon as I picked it up it was sold even though I had no intention of buying a hammer.

Bob Smith the owner of the farrier school I went to PCHS was inducted into the Horse Shoeing Hall of Fame... that was pretty cool too. ;D

Oh and as Denise said the round tables really depended on who was in there with you. I was in one with Kim and I must say that girl can jump start a round table. I should have just gone to all the ones she did. lol
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 08 Feb 2010 00:09 #4

I have gotten a lot for the summit! This was my second one.

The best part of this year is I took a lot more time to meet people I have never met and talk further with other exhibitors, and attend the dinners and get some good discussion going. If you are around Texas and are not doing bussiness with Texas farrier supply I would strongly encourage you to do so! James and Chuck are fine people, also Paul from Farriers Fix Hoof Oil.


I agree that round tables are what they are, I enjoy them no matter what tho, I have only one caution for anyone setting up people to moderate round tables. If you have someone who believes all horses should be barefoot or vise versa they are not the person to moderate a discussion on that topic IMO.

As for Randy Luikart and Noel Muller DVM, they talked about medical and mechanical concerns in the hind leg, and then over coming displacement issues within the hoof. I may have missed something but I do not recall either saying that it is not laminitis they did not talk only on sinking boney column but as well as other types of "displacement". I hope you and the people you talked to did get something form these two because they are very good at what they do.

My favorite speaker was Ric Redden DVM and Jamie Cooper did a swell job too!
Jarred Oates
Oates Equine Service's
Farrier-Massage-Aromathearpy-Training

Hocking College Equine Science
(farrier, equine health, and wilderness horsemanship)
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 08 Feb 2010 01:26 #5

  • Alicia Thompson
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oatey_hocking wrote:
As for Randy Luikart and Noel Muller DVM, they talked about medical and mechanical concerns in the hind leg, and then over coming displacement issues within the hoof. I may have missed something but I do not recall either saying that it is not laminitis they did not talk only on sinking boney column but as well as other types of "displacement". I hope you and the people you talked to did get something form these two because they are very good at what they do.

They did actually say the sinking was not due to laminitis. There was some good info but they( Noel ) seemed to over simplify somethings and make others unnecessarily complicated.

In the hind end lameness talk did you catch the part where he showed a slide of a horse with a HUGELY stretched toe. The farrier had set the shoe back obviously to help/protect the stifle as ANY stifle would be at risk with a toe that forward, then Noel went on to say the farrier set the toe to far back blah blah blah and oh incidentally the horse was in to see him for stifle issues.
Well no **** the horse had stifle issues looking at that toe and hello that is what the farrier was trying to help.

It ticked me off because if the farrier was doing his job and Noel used this as an example of insufficient toe support. Just over simplifying things.

I also don't buy the undermining the hoof capsule stuff about dressing the bottom 1 inch back, they don't want you setting shoes back, dressing the toe.... sure neither is the perfect ideal but either is shoeing to distortion which they did show, or leaving break-over way forward which are the only two other options.

Compromises are part of life, I'll take a dressed toe over shoeing to distortion any day.
Forget thinking outside the box, instead realize there is no box.
- Alicia Thompson


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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 08 Feb 2010 01:30 #6

  • Rick Burten
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The general sessions were really good regardless of who the speaker was. I had a bit of trouble understanding Dr. Muller because he was speaking a mile a minute, and Jim Ferrie presented a problem for me with his accent. The classroom sessions I attended were informative. For me, t he biggest problem with them, and the round tables is deciding which ones to attend. As usualy, there information overload will take me some time to sort out. The Trade Show offered a diverse and interesting group of exhibitors. The only thing I bought were MFC Saddlehorse clinchers. I did manage to come away with several product samples including hoof oil and rasps.

I was absent from the session where the skeletal limb winners were announced, and only later found out that I won either a front or hind limb(to be delivered at a later date).

I met several other FHRC members, though there were a few I never did catch up with. Kim and Denise finally met in person and to my dismay, no cat fight ensued.;)

I looked, in vain, for Rick Talbert. I guess he was hanging out with the 'top farriers' ;) so our paths didn't cross...

This was my seventh year of attendance, and I was well pleased with the content and speakers. I'll be back again next year so long as I'm upright and ambulatory.

Rick
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In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
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Je pense donc je suis
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 08 Feb 2010 04:05 #7

  • Rick Talbert
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mybluedanube wrote:
They did actually say the sinking was not due to laminitis. There was some good info but they( Noel ) seemed to over simplify somethings and make others unnecessarily complicated.

In the hind end lameness talk did you catch the part where he showed a slide of a horse with a HUGELY stretched toe. The farrier had set the shoe back obviously to help/protect the stifle as ANY stifle would be at risk with a toe that forward, then Noel went on to say the farrier set the toe to far back blah blah blah and oh incidentally the horse was in to see him for stifle issues.
Well no **** the horse had stifle issues looking at that toe and hello that is what the farrier was trying to help.

It ticked me off because if the farrier was doing his job and Noel used this as an example of insufficient toe support. Just over simplifying things.

I also don't buy the undermining the hoof capsule stuff about dressing the bottom 1 inch back, they don't want you setting shoes back, dressing the toe.... sure neither is the perfect ideal but either is shoeing to distortion which they did show, or leaving break-over way forward which are the only two other options.

Compromises are part of life, I'll take a dressed toe over shoeing to distortion any day.

I think the horse you are referring to had suspensory issues, not a stifle problem. I am not 100% sure about that, but that is what I remember. I thought Dr Muller was very fair to farriers especially the ones who shod the horses he used as an example. I do distinctly recall that he actually said that he understood completely why the horses were being shod inapropriately in his opinion, and that reason he said was because the vets were more than likely requesting the farriers to shoe the horse in that manner. He even said that for THAT reason (he said) he may be talking to the wrong group. The inference was that the vets could probably benefit more from this information regarding the proper shoeing of horses with suspensory problems. I found him to be exactly the sort of veterinarian I would enjoy working with, and I was very impressed with his findings. You certainly don't have to buy into anything you disagree with, but they did offer a strong case for not raping the hoof wall back on a hoof. And they did not advocate leaving breakover forward of where it should be. In Randy's classroom lecture he presented a laminitic case in which he did not rape back the toe and was able to achieve a total transformation in hoof type over time through preserving the toe, utilizing the w shoe/pad technique, and putting breakover where need be. I admit that I have been one to over dress a distorted dorsal wall. From now on though I think I may think a little more about that on a case by case basis.
Rick Talbert
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 08 Feb 2010 04:20 #8

  • Rick Talbert
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Rick Burten wrote:
I looked, in vain, for Rick Talbert. I guess he was hanging out with the 'top farriers' ;) so our paths didn't cross...
Wow, I didn't think I was that important. I sure didn't think you'd be interested in talkin with little ole me Rick, I figured you were hangin out with them top farriers. Did you happen to see Chris Gregory's lecture on hot shoeing BTW:D;)
Rick Talbert
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 08 Feb 2010 04:27 #9

  • Alicia Thompson
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Rick Talbert wrote:
I think the horse you are referring to had suspensory issues, not a stifle problem. I am not 100% sure about that, but that is what I remember..
Nope this one was stifle.

Rick Talbert wrote:
I thought Dr Muller was very fair to farriers especially the ones who shod the horses he used as an example. I do distinctly recall that he actually said that he understood completely why the horses were being shod inapropriately in his opinion, and that reason he said was because the vets were more than likely requesting the farriers to shoe the horse in that manner. He even said that for THAT reason (he said) he may be talking to the wrong group. The inference was that the vets could probably benefit more from this information regarding the proper shoeing of horses with suspensory problems. .
I had totally forgotten about that part but your right I quite liked the suspensory part of the discussion.


Rick Talbert wrote:
I found him to be exactly the sort of veterinarian I would enjoy working with, and I was very impressed with his findings. You certainly don't have to buy into anything you disagree with, but they did offer a strong case for not raping the hoof wall back on a hoof. And they did not advocate leaving breakover forward of where it should be. In Randy's classroom lecture he presented a laminitic case in which he did not rape back the toe and was able to achieve a total transformation in hoof type over time through preserving the toe, utilizing the w shoe/pad technique, and putting breakover where need be. I admit that I have been one to over dress a distorted dorsal wall. From now on though I think I may think a little more about that on a case by case basis.

I didn't go to his class room lecture so I missed that part.
Forget thinking outside the box, instead realize there is no box.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 08 Feb 2010 15:18 #10

  • Rick Burten
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Rick Talbert wrote:
Rick Burten;192218 wrote:
Wow, I didn't think I was that important.
You're too modest.....
I sure didn't think you'd be interested in talkin with little ole me Rick,
I'm interested in talking with anyone who is interested in talking with me.
I figured you were hangin out with them top farriers.
Them and [almost] everyone else too. ;) If you had stopped by the Guild of Professional Farrier's booth at the right times, you'd have found me there, actively engaged in conversations with anyone who showed an interest in learning more about the Guild....
Did you happen to see Chris Gregory's lecture on hot shoeing BTW:D;)
Sure did. On occasion, it made my stomach go flip-flop. Especially when he was describing hot fitting the shoe while there is still 'color' in it. All I could envision was someone not understanding the correct way to do this and going home and roasting a red hot shoe on to some poor horse's hoof that they had already trimmed too short for a hot fit. :eek:

As an aside, Chris and I are friends and had you been at the Summit last year, you would have seen us sharing the stage and 'jousting' with each other on questions presented us by Frank Lessiter. And for the record, Chris is one of those whom I consider(by my not scientific formula which emphatically does not include components of income or who he knows or who knows him) a top farrier.....

Rick
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Je pense donc je suis
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 09 Feb 2010 07:29 #11

Rick Burten wrote:
Sure did. On occasion, it made my stomach go flip-flop. Especially when he was describing hot fitting the shoe while there is still 'color' in it. All I could envision was someone not understanding the correct way to do this and going home and roasting a red hot shoe on to some poor horse's hoof that they had already trimmed too short for a hot fit. :eek:

Rick

I haven't seen the presentation but I would like to make a case for extremely hot fitting really poor feet. The ones that you just can't keep a shoe on. One of my mentors showed me to not trim such a foot but only burn (as in BURN) in the shoe. I tried it a couple of times and it works. The flames may burn your arms and spook the horse, and you also need a horse that you did on a regular basis because you need to make a shoe for a trimmed foot without trimming it first, but other than that it was a help for me more than once.



Ronald Aalders
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 09 Feb 2010 13:39 #12

Mr Burten,

Good point. I would share your concern about what some people would take home from Chris' instruction of having some color in the shoe when burning on.

But I have always heard Chris strongly emphasize a MAXIMUM 4 SECOND burn time. He always told us don't guess, count, so as to sear, not bake the foot. This seems to work well for me. I seldom go 4 seconds if my shoe is hot enough. The message I got was: hotter shoe, less burn time. This is the part I would be afraid some people might miss.

Regards,
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 09 Feb 2010 14:25 #13

  • Mike Ferrara
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Western Hill Forge wrote:
Mr Burten,

Good point. I would share your concern about what some people would take home from Chris' instruction of having some color in the shoe when burning on.

But I have always heard Chris strongly emphasize a MAXIMUM 4 SECOND burn time. He always told us don't guess, count, so as to sear, not bake the foot. This seems to work well for me. I seldom go 4 seconds if my shoe is hot enough. The message I got was: hotter shoe, less burn time. This is the part I would be afraid some people might miss.

Regards,

Heat transfer is a function of the temp difference, the material properties and time. A really hot shoe for a short time, may not get as much heat as far into the foot as a cooler shoe for a longer period of time.
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 09 Feb 2010 15:05 #14

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I conducted some trials to measure the heat transfer of various shoeing products/techniques through temperature probes inserted into the junction of the sole and corium. A 470 degree centigrade shoe burned for 5 seconds resulted in a 12-14 degree centigrade increase at the level of sensitive tissue. One might guess that change would be reduced with the advantage of circulation dissipating this heat in a live horse.
P
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RE:International Hoof-care Summit????? 09 Feb 2010 15:07 #15

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"Thanks!" to those who commented on my lecture. It was a really enjoyable conference, and was good to see/meet people from this site.
P
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