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TOPIC: Watching Each Other's Backs

RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 28 Nov 2009 02:57 #61

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Ben this is not a bit harsh it is very harsh and darn right insulting. Your previous post also was insulting. Is this the way you debate?

Here is how I watch another guys back. If someone is injured or sick I will help them out and have the client send the payment to that farrier. I will also send money to a farrier in need and have done that often and I expect nothing in return. Anyone is welcome to ride with me male of female if they are looking to apprentice. I refer work to other farriers. If you ever need help I will help. If I was in your area I would help you. I do not live in a perfect world, fortunately I have been able to resolve problems with people that owed me money. I have never had someone try to intentionally rip me off and I get out plenty. You want to look at life as if people are out to get you that is your prerogative, I do not. Yes I do consider some guys poor businessmen, I see it often and it is sad. No savings, no health insurance, no plans for the future. This is a business not a hobby if you do not learn that quickly you will suffer the consequences down the rode. Best to you and your family.

Phil


Phil, this is the kind of stuff your suppose to do and I do as well. I'm also sure it's what the others who have chastised you some will do also. So, if you go the extra mile in these situations, why the hel stop at the point we have been discussing? Your going to help guys in need when they are hurt or sick but you go in and do work for an owner who owe's that farrier money if the farrier is healthy? A guy has to be down hurt or sick for you to help him? Do you see where that looks silly?

I'm all for looking out for me and making money so I can live and take care of my family, but I'm not going to do that if the situation makes it wrong, and the situation this thread is about makes it wrong. That's my opinion and you have yours.

If you feel my posts were harsh, sorry, I thought you were tougher skinned than that. I will tell you straight out, I think going in and taking money when another guy is owed is wrong. I don't think it's professional or good business. Sooner or later the guy doing that will get the rep as the guy to call when you need a farrier and can't pay the last guy, this other guy will come and do the work. I don't want to be that guy, it happened once in my over zealous beginning. Once I talked to the other farrier and found out I had been had by the owner it changed my first call questioning process. I called that owner and told them I would never work for them again, I didn't appreciate being used and lied to. I no longer will do that and hope it never happens to me. I feel more loyalty for my farrier brothers and sisters than for bad owners. To me that is a big part of being professional and a business man.

So I guess you can take this with a grain of salt or blow it off, that's up to you. We agreed a long time ago we would each do our thing and I'm sure we always will. Good evening to you and yours.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 28 Nov 2009 03:00 #62

I wrote a post last night that was very rude. Anyway the farrier that I was referring to in the post called me this evening after reading this thread. It turns out that the client doctored and twisted the other guys words around quite a bit and I feel like a ***** for jumping to conclusions last night and not contacting him first before writing the trash that I did. Once again if you read this I apologize for jumping the gun/my temper and I greatly appreciate your understanding.
Drew Stuart
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 28 Nov 2009 03:08 #63

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Drew Stuart wrote:
I wrote a post last night that was very rude. Anyway the farrier that I was referring to in the post called me this evening after reading this thread. It turns out that the client doctored and twisted the other guys words around quite a bit and I feel like a ***** for jumping to conclusions last night and not contacting him first before writing the trash that I did. Once again if you read this I apologize for jumping the gun/my temper and I greatly appreciate your understanding.
Drew Stuart


There ya go, perfect example of trust in the farrier bretheren, not the owner who cares not for us.:eek::rolleyes::D
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 28 Nov 2009 03:59 #64

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
Your going to help guys in need when they are hurt or sick but you go in and do work for an owner who owe's that farrier money if the farrier is healthy? A guy has to be down hurt or sick for you to help him? Do you see where that looks silly?

Ben, apparently you have not totally read what I said. I have no idea why a horse owner has chosen to use another farrier, because I do not ask. I do not get in the middle of he said/she said.

Drew Stuart wrote:
I wrote a post last night that was very rude. Anyway the farrier that I was referring to in the post called me this evening after reading this thread. It turns out that the client doctored and twisted the other guys words around quite a bit and I feel like a ***** for jumping to conclusions last night and not contacting him first before writing the trash that I did. Once again if you read this I apologize for jumping the gun/my temper and I greatly appreciate your understanding.
Drew Stuart

Perfect example of he said/she said and why I think it is wise to stay out of it. As Red would say mind as you go. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 28 Nov 2009 04:03 #65

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
There ya go, perfect example of trust in the farrier bretheren, not the owner who cares not for us.:eek::rolleyes::D

Be careful Ben, your painting with a wide brush saying horse owners do not care about us. I know plenty that care a lot and I am sure you have plenty that care about you. Don't let a couple of bad apples get you down and give you such a glum view of horse owners and barns. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 28 Nov 2009 04:08 #66

  • Gary Hill
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Man we do seem to spin these threads in circles or what? The main point that I seem to understand and fully agree with is simple. IF a horseowner owes money to a Farrier that has done good quality work at his price and the owner fails to pay, WHY should any other Farrier worth his/her weight go and service the deadbeats horses, UNTIL the first Farrier is paid INFULL for his/her services?
I seem to see in these threads that 99% of the Farriers responding agree with this? Why reward this behavior, it is like letting a horse get away with a fast one, ain't gonna happen in my playpen! GRANTED some work done by so called hoofcare providers isn't worth the paper it is still a fact that the owners are getting away with getting something for nothing? Sounds like the way the new government wants us to be?:eek:
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 28 Nov 2009 04:09 #67

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Phil Armitage wrote:
Be careful Ben, your painting with a wide brush saying horse owners do not care about us. I know plenty that care a lot and I am sure you have plenty that care about you. Don't let a couple of bad apples get you down and give you such a glum view of horse owners and barns. :)


Phil, now your not reading, if you have been following along you would know that I'm talking about those owners who are the one's who really don't care about us as farriers and they are out there. The one's who do care have nothing to do with this thread. You keep wanting this to go somewhere besides what Phillip talked about. We're not talking about good owners, we're not talking about hard times, we're talking about those owners who don't care and will cheat us. That's the owners Phillip started this about so we could all talk about watching out for each other when these types try to cheat us out of what we earned.

OK, enough, your not getting it and I'm tired of typing. As I said, you do it your way and I'll do it mine.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 28 Nov 2009 04:41 #68

Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

I have a number of clients over the years that never paid me,
and some that felt that I charged too much . . .

I will email them your phone number so you can shoe their horses . . .
. . . and maybe not get paid . . .

You can thank me later . . . :D
Bradley SaintJohn

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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 28 Nov 2009 08:17 #69

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What i seem to see isclients(no More)that do not pay are on a down hill road anyway and don`t last long with horse or in the area..
We do warn friends/farriers about them..

What I try an get owners to do If they are down on the cash is to talk to me ,
I have had times in life with less than 2pennies in my pocket...but here the reasons are mostly so unexspected Bill as Vet /Garage car sometimes a death in the family .
I helped one client In a really bad time ,but the horse had to be done 45 head and I just wrote a list for over 6 months (mostly trims)and she paid what she could ,now she is riding higher ,became a europe master 3 years running T walking horse, and has her feet on the ground again ...Pays Cash each time and coffee..

The year before last i was owed nothing,last year it was 77 euros that girl was for sure on drugs..

I do warn fellow farriers if I am on a friendship level ,if not then only if I meet them on the road In small talk ,and with care ..
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 28 Nov 2009 12:10 #70

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BS Shoeing wrote:
OK, enough, your not getting it and I'm tired of typing. As I said, you do it your way and I'll do it mine.
Phil A. wrote:
Be careful Ben, your painting with a wide brush saying horse owners do not care about us. I know plenty that care a lot and I am sure you have plenty that care about you. Don't let a couple of bad apples get you down and give you such a glum view of horse owners and barns.
IMO, you guys are both saying the same thing, only in your own distinctive ways. ;) I would be glad to have either/both of you in my area, because I know you would back me if I got in a bind. We all have our own style or comfort zones and neither is necessarily right or wrong. I have a quirk with the "friends" feature on this site, just not comfortable with it so don't participate in that feature. Does that mean I feel all are enemies or competitors waiting to cut into my client list? Of course not, in fact nice to see those that do use that feature, but it's not for me. As has been said before, most in our trade that have been kicked around, exhausted from the work load and experienced the range of good/not so good, areas of our work, are good people. We can relate to the hard times that happen and would lend a hand in a heart beat. We do look after number one for our family sakes and just because it makes sense.
Ben I can't see why you get tired of typing.......just change fingers. ;):D
John
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 28 Nov 2009 14:15 #71

John Emsley wrote:
IMO, you guys are both saying the same thing, only in your own distinctive ways. ;) I would be glad to have either/both of you in my area, because I know you would back me if I got in a bind. We all have our own style or comfort zones and neither is necessarily right or wrong. I have a quirk with the "friends" feature on this site, just not comfortable with it so don't participate in that feature. Does that mean I feel all are enemies or competitors waiting to cut into my client list? Of course not, in fact nice to see those that do use that feature, but it's not for me. As has been said before, most in our trade that have been kicked around, exhausted from the work load and experienced the range of good/not so good, areas of our work, are good people. We can relate to the hard times that happen and would lend a hand in a heart beat. We do look after number one for our family sakes and just because it makes sense.
Ben I can't see why you get tired of typing.......just change fingers. ;):D
John

Well said John, thank you.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 10 Dec 2009 04:47 #72

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Pretty cut throat out here in West Tx, bad mouthing, underbidding, stealing of tools.
I even had to fire a kid that was working for me, because I caught him going back to some of my stops where he knew the clients werent home and pulling my shoes off. Then running an ad in the local paper stating "problems with lost shoes" Im not the type to lose my temper but just thinking about all the fuel and time i wasted really got to me.
Bo Crotta - Equine Specialist
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 10 Dec 2009 05:11 #73

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13Puppet wrote:
I even had to fire a kid that was working for me, because I caught him going back to some of my stops where he knew the clients werent home and pulling my shoes off. Then running an ad in the local paper stating "problems with lost shoes"
Now that could change a saint to a sinner! :mad: Surely that's the exception rather than the rule.
John
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 11 Dec 2009 12:59 #74

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13puppet wrote:
Pretty cut throat out here in West Tx, bad mouthing, underbidding, stealing of tools.
I even had to fire a kid that was working for me, because I caught him going back to some of my stops where he knew the clients werent home and pulling my shoes off. Then running an ad in the local paper stating "problems with lost shoes" Im not the type to lose my temper but just thinking about all the fuel and time i wasted really got to me.

That's too bad. Most farriers I know are all pretty good about helping the next guy out, though, I can't speak for the ones that I don't know. I did have some tools taken once but that guy is an exception and I left the tools at a former clients for an extended period after I moved out of state. Heck, half the hand tools I'm using and my shoeing box were given to me.
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