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TOPIC: Watching Each Other's Backs

RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 00:35 #46

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Phil, your still the one not getting it. We're not talking about the pis poor economics of the time, or some one down on thier luck for a while. Phillip is talking about a customer who is screewing the previous farrier out of money he earned. Do you get it now? I'm typing real slow so you can understand. T h e h o r s e o w n e r d i d n ' t p a y o n p u r p o se, a n d t h e n c a l l e d s o m e o n e e l s e s o t h e y w o u l d n ' t h a v e t o p a y. The owner cheated the first guy. We're not talking nice people with problems, we're talking jerks who don't respect us. Do you get it now? Dam son you can be thick headed!!!:eek:
Ben Sturman
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Tough times never last, but tough people do!

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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 01:46 #47

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
Phil, your still the one not getting it. We're not talking about the pis poor economics of the time, or some one down on thier luck for a while. Phillip is talking about a customer who is screewing the previous farrier out of money he earned. Do you get it now? I'm typing real slow so you can understand. T h e h o r s e o w n e r d i d n ' t p a y o n p u r p o se, a n d t h e n c a l l e d s o m e o n e e l s e s o t h e y w o u l d n ' t h a v e t o p a y. The owner cheated the first guy. We're not talking nice people with problems, we're talking jerks who don't respect us. Do you get it now? Dam son you can be thick headed!!!:eek:

Ben I understand what Phillip is talking about. He is also talking about the need for farriers talking to each other and watching each others backs. I do not agree this this is necessary and this is not the first time I have heard a farrier suggest this. To be honest I am skeptical of anyone in business making such a request. I believe I have done the best I can to explain why, to each his own. Happy Thanksgiving.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 08:55 #48

Funny I stumbled upon this thread tonight. This May I moved back to Bozeman, MT to finish college (I dropped out as a junior 3yrs ago). I was pretty bummed to leave the the work that Id built back in VA but Id made a good decision and was stickn' to it. Through some awesome friends who are also shoers, a team ropin addiction, and just working a bit harder at advertising myself, I managed to get fairly busy this summer. Flash forward to the first of several snow storms earlier this October...ill just say that I love MT but VA is a helluva lot friendlier to farriers in the winter!--THis all means that $ is a bit tight right now and the folks that want to keep shoes on through the winter are really important to me. I also want to say 1st that this area has a surprisingly large, extremely talented(a lot of CJF's), tight knit and supportive group of farriers.This evening however I went over to have thanksgiving w/ a client who's also a friend (Im still shoeing 2 for her through the winter). She starts a conversation about how well her one horse has been going since I started shoeing him--hes been having problems w/ his hind end and she's convinced its in his feet. It was like pulling teeth trying to explain all the reasons why I thought her horse wasnt a good candidate for the shiny squaretoed shoes that cant be shaped:rolleyes:-Im amazed at this person's and many other clients baseless obsession w/ NB and "breakover". This horse, which is a dancing ass of a T'bred to work on, has 4 shoes, leather pads up front and equipac in the hinds (I know it sounds like a bit of a weird combo but apparantly it worked, he has good shape and balance to his feet just really thin soles). After telling me "you fixed my horse" (yea whatever) she then mentions that John (aka), the other farrier at her boarding facility informed her that I should have only charged her $175:eek::mad: and that my rates were "too steep"!!!. My base rate for 4 shoes is $100, add to that 2 tubes of unmarked-up equipac at $70 (she is a friend...hmm...,shes gotten me a client or 2, and she lives close by) plus a final $20 for leather pads on the fronts and the labor involved w/ installing the pads and Equipac=A GOOD DEAL! $190.00--all of my costs are always itemized on the invoice and Ive shod this horse 3xs now so its not like a "surprise! u gotta pay me $190" situation. I could also care less that the lady probably thinks that ol' John is a better farrier than me-- you cant really blame her afterall he doesnt make the barn smell like a branding, in her own words , "he does a great job at setting shoes back":p (she might as well 've told me that he does a great job wiping his ***), "he never takes more than 45 mins to shoe a horse", oh yea and "he's soooo cheap!".
Anyway I gotta shoe this horse next week and Im going to write the same invoice that I always do and I hope there wont be a problem because I certainly cant afford to be losing much more work. At the same time I WILL NOT TOLERATE this particular lady taking issue w/ my pricing. I actually dont have a problem w/ first time clients trying to talk my price down, its normal business. However these clients are usually hardworking businessmen (racin trainers in VA, outfitters in MT) not the pony-club-trainer-lady type that was told by some ***** to suggest that I lower my price at the 4th shoeing.
Looked up my fellow farrier's house # this eve--lookin forward to giving him a call right about supper time tomorrow!

Happy Thanksgiving, Drew
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 10:15 #49

  • cynthia-jay
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"been there done that"

it seems the larger barns that appear to have/make alot of money were the ones to stiff a Farrier and not pay grain bills/Vets too as well

First rule of thumb here taught to me "you don't take another "farriers Income":eek: not if you want to stay alive in this trade:D

there are barns here that hired and fired Farriers, ( no pay, cancelled checks ect)

it happend so quick untill word got around...seems some of these individuals also have trouble getting a DVM out if that gives any indication of how the game was played

(a bit on the shadey side)

the better barns, have a rule, you use the barn farrier/DVM or board somewhere else

it elimanated alot of the problems associated with stealing clients and bad mouthing farriers/DVM's and non-payment kept those working on a regular basis

as always

Cynthia Jay:)
Cynthia Jay
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 12:50 #50

Oh brother, you guys are too funny. Here, I will help you out.

1. You tell them your price (sometimes you will not know until you evaluate the situation, then you tell them just in case you need to use equipak or something, if you end up not doing the horse still charge for your travel and time.)

2. Ask how they plan on paying, do this on the phone not after you get there. (If it is a horse owner or barn you do not know, it is cash upfront, I have done this before it works. If they do not want to pay up front then you do not shoe the horse. Some trades require 50% down before any work is started and the rest upon completion of work, might as well get 100% upfront, since you will be done shortly.)

3. Add in all the policy's you want, horse must be in ready to go, has to be held, must be cleaned up, stands for the farrier, etc.... Anything you want that will make the job safe and enjoyable.

If everyone did this their would not be a problem. The problem is everyone does not do this and allows things that cause problems. That my friends is the problem, farriers with poor business skills and then want a shoulder to cry on.

Seems very simple and professional to me. Maybe some of you guys enjoy the drama and being abused. :)

Have a good day everyone, hope this helps.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 13:12 #51

  • Mike Ferrara
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Networking has advantages. It can help you get work, help or help you get paid once you've done the work.

Myself and the guys I know kind of keep on eye out for each other. I won't work on a horse if I know the last farrier hasn't been paid. When I get a call from a new account, I often contact the last farrier if I know who it is. Not just to make sure they've been paid but sometimes there are things they can tell me that can save me some trouble. There's plenty of work out there but not plenty of good work. We'd all like to think that we're so good that people are falling over themselves to get us but, the fact is, that lots of folks looking for a new farrier didn't dump their last farrier but were dumped by their last farrier. Personally, I could take a little more winter work but I don't leave business cards laying around anymore because it seems like they get you more trouble than good work. I'd rather people come with references and the best reference is a farrier that I know and trust.
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 13:46 #52

  • Mike Ferrara
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Oh brother, you guys are too funny. Here, I will help you out.

1. You tell them your price (sometimes you will not know until you evaluate the situation, then you tell them just in case you need to use equipak or something, if you end up not doing the horse still charge for your travel and time.)

2. Ask how they plan on paying, do this on the phone not after you get there. (If it is a horse owner or barn you do not know, it is cash upfront, I have done this before it works. If they do not want to pay up front then you do not shoe the horse. Some trades require 50% down before any work is started and the rest upon completion of work, might as well get 100% upfront, since you will be done shortly.)

3. Add in all the policy's you want, horse must be in ready to go, has to be held, must be cleaned up, stands for the farrier, etc.... Anything you want that will make the job safe and enjoyable.

If everyone did this their would not be a problem. The problem is everyone does not do this and allows things that cause problems. That my friends is the problem, farriers with poor business skills and then want a shoulder to cry on.

Seems very simple and professional to me. Maybe some of you guys enjoy the drama and being abused. :)

Have a good day everyone, hope this helps.

What's not simple about it is that not everyone has the same sort of business. I like cash up front just fine but requiring it wouldn't work well in my business. Most of my accounts are big barns. When a new horse comes in and gets put on my list, I shoe it and send a bill. Not very often but once in a while someone will fail to pay and call another farrier or just move out of the barn never to be hard from again. There are two things that make that hard for them. One is that, hopefully, the barn owner or trainer looks out for you. The second is that you probably know the other farriers who are likely to be called.

Getting paid up front would prevent it from ever happening but it would be a logistical nightmare. Billing is convenient for everybody (including me) and the vast majority of people are honest enough about it.
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 15:01 #53

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Phil, you must live in Xanadu. The perfect world of farriery where everyone pays and loves you and your the smartest man alive. You must be rolling in the dough and have clients lined up at your gate to praise you every morning as you go to work.

Since this isn't true you must be the greatest business man in the farriery world. Things don't work your way everywhere Phil and some times they work that way for a while then the person shows their a jerk and cheats the farrier later. You might need to get out more.

I'm glad you don't work in my area, your a nice enough guy but for you not to care about anyone but yourself and think your the only one in your area and profession you need to think about is sad. It would be a big thanks for nothing with you around and someone got cheated you knew about, but because Phil is the only one who matters, none of the rest of us could call him and find out. I hope you never need some one to have your back Phil, after this there may not be anyone there.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 15:20 #54

  • Cyber Farrier
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Ben, I understand your sentiments, but I think, in my opinion, that they're being stated in a way that's a bit harsh.

Baron Tayler
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 16:49 #55

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If everyone did this their would not be a problem. The problem is everyone does not do this and allows things that cause problems. That my friends is the problem, farriers with poor business skills and then want a shoulder to cry on.
Phil, I don't know where you have been all these years but I have run across horse owners and trainers who will acknowledge and answer every one of your "pre appointment" specifications, tell you they are willing to pay your price on the day of the work. Then they proceed to give you a bad check, make every excuse why it bounced and then why it wont clear the bank after weeks, or (this is a good trick) leave "for a few minutes" to run a quick errand just before you are finished .never to return that day so you have to leave them a bill and hope for the best, or "Oh gosh I ran out of checks, I' ll send it tomorrow" .. In other words some people are professional deadbeats. Deadbeats do not get done by me when I know that they still owe someone else. Period.
I will not knowingly help enable them perpetuate that scam.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 16:57 #56

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WAKE UP PHIL


YOUR"E DREAMING AGAIN!

You are in "Farrier's Wonderland"

Can't tell ya how many ponies I had to chase first starting out, and lay em down to trim their feet

or how there was an emergency that came up and owner had to leave (like a C-section for a well bred dog)

My many thanks to the guys that gave me help along the way especially on cases I had never encountered before

They took me in, and I respect every darn one of them...I play by their rules

we not only helped each, other we had each others back

some of these new kids will learn sooner or later to play nice or, they don't make it in this trade

Honestley Phil, are you a blonde? or having a Senior moment?

later

Cynthia Jay:)
Cynthia Jay
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shoot first, ask questions later, dead men tell no tails, nor do they tie up the legal system or jails
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Kid Rock - Warrior (Lyrics)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHzSBEVbXtM
[url]...
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 17:58 #57

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Cyber Farrier wrote:
Ben, I understand your sentiments, but I think, in my opinion, that they're being stated in a way that's a bit harsh.

Baron Tayler


Well, yes I'd say they are a bit harsh, but for someone to just brush others off and only think of themselves is just a bit selfish to. I have my opinion and Phil has his, he's a big boy and I'm sure he can take it. I'm not calling him names or being to personal (Idon't think), just stating my view compared to his and pointing out what I think is wrong with his. Sorry if that's to un-PC for your site now.:rolleyes:
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 22:18 #58

  • Cyber Farrier
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BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
...Sorry if that's to un-PC for your site now.:rolleyes:

Nothing "un-PC" about it. Just trying to get everyone to temper the "tone" at times. Carry on.

Baron Tayler
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 27 Nov 2009 22:44 #59

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
Phil, you must live in Xanadu. The perfect world of farriery where everyone pays and loves you and your the smartest man alive. You must be rolling in the dough and have clients lined up at your gate to praise you every morning as you go to work.

Since this isn't true you must be the greatest business man in the farriery world. Things don't work your way everywhere Phil and some times they work that way for a while then the person shows their a jerk and cheats the farrier later. You might need to get out more.

I'm glad you don't work in my area, your a nice enough guy but for you not to care about anyone but yourself and think your the only one in your area and profession you need to think about is sad. It would be a big thanks for nothing with you around and someone got cheated you knew about, but because Phil is the only one who matters, none of the rest of us could call him and find out. I hope you never need some one to have your back Phil, after this there may not be anyone there.

Ben this is not a bit harsh it is very harsh and darn right insulting. Your previous post also was insulting. Is this the way you debate?

Here is how I watch another guys back. If someone is injured or sick I will help them out and have the client send the payment to that farrier. I will also send money to a farrier in need and have done that often and I expect nothing in return. Anyone is welcome to ride with me male of female if they are looking to apprentice. I refer work to other farriers. If you ever need help I will help. If I was in your area I would help you. I do not live in a perfect world, fortunately I have been able to resolve problems with people that owed me money. I have never had someone try to intentionally rip me off and I get out plenty. You want to look at life as if people are out to get you that is your prerogative, I do not. Yes I do consider some guys poor businessmen, I see it often and it is sad. No savings, no health insurance, no plans for the future. This is a business not a hobby if you do not learn that quickly you will suffer the consequences down the rode. Best to you and your family.

Phil
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 28 Nov 2009 00:24 #60

  • Rick Talbert
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I have at times co-operated with other farriers and I have at times looked out for number one. There are too many depends to any given situation. I try to do right by the one who I think was right, sometimes that is the farrier and sometimes it has been the owner. Non-payment is only one issue of many as to why farriers and owners part ways.
Rick Talbert
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