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TOPIC: Watching Each Other's Backs

RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 00:17 #31

Gilreath Horseshoeing wrote:
I fly solo, mind my own business, and I'm sticking to my guns. Friends welcome :)

I like it Cody. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 00:24 #32

Gilreath thats no way to be. the lone ranger had tonto.-gary
Gary W. Atchison-Mustang Farrier Service-Hillsboro Texas
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 01:24 #33

Phil Armitage wrote:
I like it Cody. :)

Thanks Phil.
Cody Gilreath, CF
www.certifiedtexasfarrier.com
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 01:27 #34

mustang farrier service wrote:
Gilreath thats no way to be. the lone ranger had tonto.-gary

That's the only way I know to be. Take care of my own ****.
Cody Gilreath, CF
www.certifiedtexasfarrier.com
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 03:37 #35

  • beslagsmed
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I learned about doing business with people the hard way. When I started out, I wrote bills to people who wanted them - lost lots of money. Now, IF I take in a new customer they pay when the job is done and are told that when making the appointment. After I feel we have a working relationship, I will write them a bill.

Starting out in a different country was hard. I was the outsider and was treated as such by most farriers here. Now I get a long with most, but there are many I really don't know. What I do is stick to my guns, do the best work I know how. Almost everyday I am turning away people because I don't have time. I got a couple guys I work with, but other than that I am on my own. If one doesn't get worked up over a small amount of money not paid, then you're going to get taken to the cleaners more often.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 13:38 #36

  • Rick Burten
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Phil Armitage wrote:
So Brian your telling me if you ever have the opportunity to take a good account away from your buddy Phillip that you wouldn't? :)
Obviously, I'm neither Brian or Phil, but I'd like to answer that question. My answer is you're d-amed right I would not take a good account away from another farrier[there are a few exceptions but that's grist for a different mill] When someone calls me wanting to avail themselves of my services, I find out who they have been using and why they want to make the switch. Then, I'll call the other farrier(especially if s/he's a friend) and discuss the situation with them. Sometimes they tell me to take the account, sometimes they don't. But I try to not operate in a vacuum. What goes around, comes around.
In my sandpile we all get along, however we also realize that we are all competing for business and have bills to pay.
Its different for me. My feeling is that another farrier cannot take business away from me but I can sure lose it to him/her by my words, actions and/or deeds.

Rick
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."


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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 14:23 #37

Rick Burten wrote:
Its different for me. My feeling is that another farrier cannot take business away from me but I can sure lose it to him/her by my words, actions and/or deeds.

Rick

That is how it is for me also. Don't blame the other guy if you loose an account. When I loose an account the first thing I do is figure out why I lost it. In my opinion this all comes down to watching your own back, paying attention to what you do, do good work and treat others the way you would like to be treated. If we all do that then we do not need to worry about the other guy. :)

Horse owners can pick and choose whoever they want. The horses belong to them not to us, we are on there property not ours and it is a privilege not a right. With that said I'm not going to make horse owners or farriers feel sorry for me or that they owe me something. I could have had a new customer last week, the lady wants to change farriers and wanted me to look at her farriers work. Some of the nicest work I have seen done by a veteran farrier. I told her that and asked why she would want to give up great work. She did not realize the work was so good and said thank you and that she will stick with her farrier. I don't know too many guys that would have done that. However if she insisted on changing after that, then ya heck ya I would take her as a client. She has nice horses, nice facility to work at and seemed like a nice lady.

With all that said Rick, you and I are friends and if we did business in the same area and one of your clients called me and I needed the business, you bet your behind I would take it. You would find out sooner or later, so I probably won't call you. Nothing personal, just business. :)

I have had many clients switch from me to another farrier, it has never bothered me and never expect the other farrier to call me, they rarely if ever do. You move on and go to work, try to figure out what you could do different. Much more important things in life, like family and your health and spending time at the forge. Which I do not get enough time to do.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 18:43 #38

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Losing business and taking business are not really what Phillip was talking about. He's talking about cheap as* owners screewing a farrier out of money he earned by doing the work. Then, said same owner calling someone else to do the work again and maybe paying him/her while still oweing the first farrier money. After a while, said owner will probably do the same thing to the next person.

So if your the person who comes in behind a guy who is owed money just cause the owner is a cheap caniving low life and think you got the job cause your better, your just a dam big fool. It's more about the idea of showing how professional we can be instead of how childish we can be. It's about letting the owners know we are smarter than the animals we work on, that they cannot just use us and throw us away. This type of owner is very disrespectful and doesn't give two hoots and a holler about you.

So yes Phil, talking and keeping other farriers up to date about these types of owners is very professional. It's called professional courtesy, it happens within a profession. As far as it being a priveledge for me to work on someone's horses, I call BS big time. I run a business that provides a service they need, so if I'm good enough they are going to want to call me to work on their horses and ask that I do so. Thier not going to give me the priveledge, they pay me to do the work that I'm suppose to be skilled at, not that I'm given the priveledge to do. I feel priveledged to be able to do this job, but I'm not given that priveldge by the owners, I'm sought out by them and they feel priveledged as I do that we could work together to keep their horses going. Your looking at things from a selfish me me me perspective there Phil as far as you business and then from a insecure perspective as you seem to feel that you are not needed by horse owners but given the priveledge to work cuase they feel sorry for you. As you run your business you need to work that business for your success as well as work your profession to keep it going forward. If you only care about you within the profession and not the guy who is owed money, some day when you need help or money you could find yourself without that safety net. Just something to think about.
Ben Sturman
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 19:48 #39

  • solidrockshoer
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Interesting comments by you gents, however I'm of the persuasion that "Don't tell me who you were using or what you think of him". I'm not into gossip and sure don't like to hear a client passing opinions on previous farriers used, because down the road I'll probably be the center of discussion. As for the work of the last farrier, I can get a pretty good feel just by looking at what's in front of me. And yes I sure cut him slack because of facilities, length of time since done, and horses handability, ( my word ) but I keep it to myself. ;)

Phil, business is business, but I wouldn't feel comfortable taking a call off a close friend, unless he said to go ahead. It's happened only once in my career.
John
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 21:34 #40

John Emsley wrote:
Phil, business is business, but I wouldn't feel comfortable taking a call off a close friend, unless he said to go ahead. It's happened only once in my career.
John

It happens, especially when you try to keep your business radius close. It has happened to me and to my friends and believe it or not we are still friends. Professionalism is the ability to keep things business and not personal. Some find it very difficult to do and make a mountain out of a mole hill.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 21:51 #41

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Phil A. wrote:
Professionalism is the ability to keep things business and not personal.
It might also be called thick skinned, of which I'm not. :cool: I refuse to listen to any client bad mouthing one of my peers, friend or not. That to me is professionalism.

Also when I referred to "not being into gossip", I sure wasn't meaning anyone commenting here was. :o
John
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 22:06 #42

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
Losing business and taking business are not really what Phillip was talking about. He's talking about cheap as* owners screewing a farrier out of money he earned by doing the work. Then, said same owner calling someone else to do the work again and maybe paying him/her while still oweing the first farrier money. After a while, said owner will probably do the same thing to the next person.

So if your the person who comes in behind a guy who is owed money just cause the owner is a cheap caniving low life and think you got the job cause your better, your just a dam big fool. It's more about the idea of showing how professional we can be instead of how childish we can be. It's about letting the owners know we are smarter than the animals we work on, that they cannot just use us and throw us away. This type of owner is very disrespectful and doesn't give two hoots and a holler about you.

So yes Phil, talking and keeping other farriers up to date about these types of owners is very professional. It's called professional courtesy, it happens within a profession. As far as it being a priveledge for me to work on someone's horses, I call BS big time. I run a business that provides a service they need, so if I'm good enough they are going to want to call me to work on their horses and ask that I do so. Thier not going to give me the priveledge, they pay me to do the work that I'm suppose to be skilled at, not that I'm given the priveledge to do. I feel priveledged to be able to do this job, but I'm not given that priveldge by the owners, I'm sought out by them and they feel priveledged as I do that we could work together to keep their horses going. Your looking at things from a selfish me me me perspective there Phil as far as you business and then from a insecure perspective as you seem to feel that you are not needed by horse owners but given the priveledge to work cuase they feel sorry for you. As you run your business you need to work that business for your success as well as work your profession to keep it going forward. If you only care about you within the profession and not the guy who is owed money, some day when you need help or money you could find yourself without that safety net. Just something to think about.

I understand where your coming from Ben, fortunately for me I cannot say I have ever run into anyone who has intentionally tried to cheat me. My point is to bring to light that not everything is as it appears. I gave up a barn that fell on hard times and owed me a lot of money. I gave the barn up because at the time my wife lost her job and I could not afford to do work and not have the cash flow. The only way I was going to make ends meet was to take on new work with folks who could pay, I get calls everyday and it was easy to do. Another farrier took on my barn and kept her horses up to date. I even supplied the barn with each horses history from my Forgeahead program. At the time I did not know why she could not pay and did not ask questions, I just moved on. I did Finlay receive payment in full. I did what I had to do and everyone else did what they had to do. I could not afford to carry a barn. Some may jump to conclusions and say what she did was wrong or what I did was wrong. Instead nobody bad mouthed anyone and we are all still friends. I do not ask questions or assume the reason some people do not pay is because they are trying to cheat you out of it. Things happen for a reason and with todays economy it happens more and more. If I were in a better financial situation I would carry barns like that, but unfortunately I am not. People do get ugly when they get the feeling your questioning their integrity. I try my best to not make things personal and keep it business, so far it has worked out very well. In my opinion it is a privilege when a horse owner trust you enough to work on their horses, after all we are trusted with the foundation of the horse and most people realize "No Foot No Horse".

As for farriers communicating, well it depends. What you may consider a bad horse or an individual that you do not like I may consider the horse well behaved and a good person. We all have different levels of experience and personality's. I have worked on many horses that others considered dinks and with a lot of people that others could not get along with. Not sure what the difference is, maybe I have a higher tolerance for things than other guys do, I don't know. I have also been payed by folks that other farriers said they do not pay. Be careful with opinions and rumors. Best to find out things first hand and come to your own conclusions. For that reason, I prefer not to engage in conversations with other farriers about horses and horse owners. Just my humble opinion.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 22:07 #43

  • Bryan McElwee
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Phil Armitage wrote:
I'm not sure if I would consider two farriers talking about folks owning you money professional.
I consider it not only profession but a favor to the next guy! For example a lady quits Phillip and calls me (or vise versa) and she owes one of us money do you think its professional to go in there and do work knowing she owes another farrier money for the job he did? Your asking for trouble because if she stick one farrier and gets away with it she will try and do it again.

Phil Armitage wrote:
Why would you consider taking care of your own backside unprofessional?
I dont think its unprofessional. Your putting words in my mouth.


Phil Armitage wrote:
I have experienced a few situations where the horse or horse owner get along with me just fine and did not get along with the former farrier and vice versa.
Well they might have owed the other guy money and he wanted it. You never know why they didnt get along with the farrier unless your there too see what went on. All that is hear say.

Phil Armitage wrote:
So Brian your telling me if you ever have the opportunity to take a good account away from your buddy Phillip that you wouldn't? :)
Phil, No I wouldnt. Im not going out taking clients from anybody. I dont go out looking for business. I always ask who the last farrier was and why they were not happy with him. Most of my business is vet refferal now so Im usually going in because something is not right with the horse.

Phil Armitage wrote:
In my sandpile we all get along, however we also realize that we are all competing for business and have bills to pay.
Competing for business is one thing but screwing a fellow farrier out of getting paid is a totally different thing. Im done trying to get you to realize this, your a helpless cause and not worth the time or effort to explain it.
Good judgement comes from experience... And a lot of that comes from bad judgement

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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 22:16 #44

John Emsley wrote:
It might also be called thick skinned, of which I'm not. :cool: I refuse to listen to any client bad mouthing one of my peers, friend or not. That to me is professionalism.

Also when I referred to "not being into gossip", I sure wasn't meaning anyone commenting here was. :o
John

I feel the same way John, it makes my skin crawl to hear anyone bad mouth anyone. People usually get the message when I go dead silent and my expression changes. I find they usually stop.

I knew you did not mean anyone on here with the gossip comment.

A lot of good points of views on here and enjoy reading them. Everyone has a different approach when it comes to doing business. If it works well for you and keeps a roof over your head and food on the table then don't change. :)

Happy Thanksgiving everyone, I need loosen my belt and take a nap. Hope everyone's belly's are full and everyone had a great day.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Watching Each Other's Backs 26 Nov 2009 22:32 #45

Bryan McElwee wrote:
Competing for business is one thing but screwing a fellow farrier out of getting paid is a totally different thing. Im done trying to get you to realize this, your a helpless cause and not worth the time or effort to explain it.

Brian, that was just down right mean spirited if you ask me. We all have experienced not getting paid and I do not put the burden of getting paid on the shoulders of my fellow farriers, frankly it is none of their business. This is my problem to resolve and sometimes not getting paid is because our policy's are too slack and I have been too slack in the past. One way to avoid not getting paid is to do a better job with your own business. As I said reading horses is much easier than reading people. These days I am very clear about payment, I only bill people that I know well all others have to pay upon completion of work sometime cash. I send my bills promptly and I also send statements. If needed I will drive to the house or barn to collect. Always professional and courteous. It can be labor intensive sometimes, but it is between me and the client and nobody else. Have I made myself clear enough. Lighten up buddy, your way too intense. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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