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TOPIC: Journey to AFA CJF

RE:Journey to AFA CJF 03 Nov 2009 14:21 #46

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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smitty88 in gray

I think its a pity that there is people out there shoeing every day that dont know how to have there tools right


With all due respect, so what?

take dressing your pritchels and stamps up this is stuff you learn in the first week of college

In most US shoeing schools, a student first learns how to trim a hoof correctly before learning how to forge/dress pritchels, stamps and creasers.

as i said before its all down to training

Perfect practice makes perfect.

Its true what Craig has said do it every day then when you need to pass a practical or compete in a competition you dont have to reach out far for a solid job because your doing it every day

Sorry, that dog won't hunt. Check out the rigs of even the most hardcore contest farriers here in the US and you may find a hand grinder, belt grinder, drill press, pad saw, power sander, gas or electric welder, tapping gun and maybe even a power hammer - all of which serve to create and promote efficiency because they enable the farrier to do the job more accurately with less effort. Did I mention that alongside all the power tools, you'll probably find a goodly supply of the shoes most commonly used in his custom? When you think about it, if you're not forging shoes from bar stock in the field and you're fitting hot, there's not much difference between using shoes forged a the shop and using kegs.

I have nothing against hammerheads, but tell it like it is: Most forging/shoeing competitions in the present formats do not benefit the industry because the artificial constraints promote inefficiency (e.g., does anyone think jump welding a toe clip on an ASB front is superior to welding it on with wire, rod, or O/A? How about welding up an AL bar shoe in the forge instead of a torch? Is a hammer finish superior to that of a belt grinder? Etc.) The proponents of contests often attempt to link AFA certification and forging/shoeing contests, but the two, while similar in format, are not intrinsically related. After all, how many times has any farrier in the States nailed on a roadster shoe? Calk and wedge? French bar? I dunno about y'all, but when Kerks came out in fronts and hinds and lefts and rights in the early 1980s, I felt like I'd been sold to a benevolent master because I didn't have to make every steel shoe I nailed on a good horse.

At one time, I made every steel shoe I nailed on: Did I miss having to make all my own shoes? About like a working girl misses a social disease! :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 03 Nov 2009 14:56 #47

  • Craig Trnka
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Phillip,
Your posts are positive and educational. Where do all these people come from that want to covet complacency and not drive on to excellence?

Three reasons people post!

To see how smart you are.

To show everybody how smart they are.

They really want to know the answer.

The people who were in the testing mode of their life have gone off to a cleaner thread! You can see it happen every time.

Craig
"I have never seen a barefoot trimmer that was barefoot." Me
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 03 Nov 2009 16:27 #48

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Craig Trnka in gray

Your posts are positive and educational. Where do all these people come from that want to covet complacency and not drive on to excellence?

Excellence in farriery is not a matter of forging shoes, it's a matter of giving the horse whatever it needs to do whatever it does as best it can. Does anyone in the industry really think it's necessary to forge EVERY shoe one nails on in order to meet that ideal?

Three reasons people post!

Only three? Who knew?

To see how smart you are.


On the other hand, some of us post in order to show how little any one of us really knows about farriery. Nothing in the industry is sacrosanct: not the way our sainted grandfathers forged a shoe and not the junkscience that pervades the industry.

To show everybody how smart they are.

Sometimes, folks like myself post to offer a counterpoint to the daddydiditthataway mentality that stifles innovation and efficiency by attempting to give folks the idea that a hand forged shoe is inherently superior to a keg shoe. In reality, when the fit and physics are the same, there's absolutely no difference - but one seldom sees that in print.

They really want to know the answer.


Do you think the folks who really want answers to their questions want answers that are tainted to the point of being fatally flawed by the somewhat fanciful notion that forging contests are somehow related to successfully testing for the AFA CJF? The daily forging and nailing on of plain vanilla, stamped, clipped, and quarter clipped shoes in the field are a helluva long way from practicing to make the shoes often found in forging/shoeing contests.

The people who were in the testing mode of their life have gone off to a cleaner thread! You can see it happen every time.

Perfect practice makes perfect. If one wants to put CJF after his name, then one should practice trimming hooves to the AFA testing standard as well as forging, fitting, clinching and finishing the above-mentioned plain vanilla shoes, in addition to forging the required bar shoe. To that end, I would encourage anyone who wants to pass the CJF practical to attend several pre-certification clinics because they are geared specifically to passing the tests. As I see it, if one forges and nails on the required shoes on a daily basis to the point one no longer has to think about the next move, one has a very good chance of passing the CJF practical. No contesting is needed or required, just lots of practice specific to the involved motor skills. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 04 Nov 2009 00:36 #49

Box Forge wrote:
Tool maintenance is one of the most important factors in the quality of the shoes one would be able to produce. As I looked, I would see mushroomed punches and pritchels with no relief on the tip, hammer handles that had not been slimmed down to fit the user's hand, hammers with sharp edges on the faces. All these things can have a huge impact on your shoe quality. Hope this is helpful.

Recently attended a clinic with Roy Bloom on tool maintenance. He upsets (mushrooms) the tip of his pritchels for a reason. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 04 Nov 2009 01:37 #50

  • Craig Trnka
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Tom,
Who said anything about contesting. I thought the thread was about passing the CF and CJF?

There is endless opportunity for the Student, and when you always want to be the expert you end up as the main character in a Charles Dickens play eating spam on Christmas all by yourself! Keep writing your good at it.

Craig
"I have never seen a barefoot trimmer that was barefoot." Me
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 04 Nov 2009 03:05 #51

  • Box Forge
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I have said it many times and will continue to do so. Most farriers fall into two groups. Those who want to learn just enough and those that strive to know as much as possible. The certification program is a tool that can be used to help train oneself into better practices both under the horse and in the fire. When people only go through the steps, it's really no different than someone going to church and getting dunked in water and not living a Christian life yet calling themselves a Christian. If there is no meaning to what you are doing then certainly a title of such doesn't change anything. Same with anyone with the CJF or CF at the end of their name; it should be more of a way of life, a never ending practice of seeking out the answers to our questions, seeking out help from others, seeking out better ways of doing things. Our profession is very special to me, I take a lot of pride in what I do. I just think some have lost the pride in craftsmanship and replaced it with shortcuts and gimmicks. I started this thread simply to try to help those who want to get started down the right road. The certification was a huge help to me in getting me started down a road of learning that will never end. When we become stagnant and set in our ways, nothing gets accomplished. There are so many talented people in our profession that have so much to offer, if there was only more people wanting to continue learning. I have never been to a certification, contest or clinic where I have not learned a great deal and had many people offer tips on how to do something a little differently. Many become stagnant for many different reasons, but for those that want to learn I and many many others want to help and be helped. In my post regarding the observations from the certification, I wasn't criticizing the individuals for any shortcomings, but I was trying to help others not make some of the same mistakes. Let's all try to keep this thread about tips and pointers to helping people work toward certification and beyond. If you have a beef with someone posting, take it somewhere else, it just boggs down the thread.
Phillip Box, Jr., CJF
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 04 Nov 2009 03:48 #52

  • Gary Hill
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Phillip I have no arguement with your position. The last clinic I went to last month had two parts. One was a dissection and the other a pre certification shoeing of a horse. 4 differant shoes were nailed on the horse. It was done in the Cf and CJF modes. The dissection was by far the best part of the deal, but hardly anyone wanted to come over and cut on a leg? Now where would that put the two groups of people you speak of? In my sandbox it ain't everyday that one gets an Anotomy Professor and abunch of fresh legs to learn on vs watching someone shoe a horse to two standards. I was thrilled to cut on a leg and explore so I can better understand what effects those shoes I build have on the legs and feet of the horse I am shoeing. I feel at least the TPFA has a good idea how to do a clinic. Gene Lieser was doing the shoeing clinic and admitted he would of rather been over doing the dissection. Just my thoughts thats all.:D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 04 Nov 2009 04:08 #53

  • Box Forge
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Gary, anyone who is attending clinics of any sort, or contests, or certifications, or simply working with someone, or watching films or reading articles, all of these people would be trying to learn and continue their education. I not saying certification is the only tool to use in advancing yourself, I am saying it is a good tool that many do take advantage of and I wish more would. But as long as one is seeking out help, whatever resources they use, they wouldn't fall into the stagnant group. I may have not said it too clearly in my previous post, sorry. I certainly enjoy dissections as well and have done many of them and still learn something new w/ every one of them or at least refresh my memory on things already learned. That second group I was referring to are the ones who already "know it all" so to speak. Hope this clarifies my previous post. And I do think it is a good idea to structure clinics like the one you referred to b/c everyone has different needs. Some may need more help on their anatomy while others need to spend more time on their forge work.
Phillip Box, Jr., CJF
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 04 Nov 2009 05:12 #54

  • Gary Hill
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Same page Phillip!:D You just catch more flies with honey than sugar. Alot of the young newbies, having gone to a school that has cranked them out with no skill other than nipping, rasping and nailing on a common keg shoe is kinda intimidated by guys that forge shoes. They, for one thing are out trying to hustle horses so they can make some sort of living and if they can get it done simply they will? Only a few that went to a good school will come out and get in the forge. I bet there are about 30+ hoofcare providers in the tricounty area around me and only a very few even have a forge let alone use it? But to hear them talk they are under bunches of horses, cheapy too I might add to my discust! I have invited some guys to ride with me and if they want to pull off and pull down, I will let them and help them." How much are you going to pay me?":eek: I even get them to do some hot shaping for me and I finish off what they can't handle. I will run back into them down the road later and I ask how they are getting along with their hot work, and well I get," takes too long and I really need to make some money" ." I can buy preshaped fronts and hinds." Best part is when they say, " shod a founder the other day with just plates and a pad". Oh well, I guess I just was taught the hard way of doing things?:rolleyes:
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 04 Nov 2009 11:55 #55

Box Forge wrote:
I have never understood why someone would bust their tail to pass the test and then load their truck down w/ preclipped shoes and go back to their "old ways" of knocking around. Why would anyone want the title Journeyman if it is not representative of the quality of work and craftsmanship that should be expected of a Journeyman?

Phillip, keep in mind the CF and CJF standard is primarily designed to objectively test a farrier's skills within a time limit. I do not recall anyone ever implying that this standard should be how we should shoe horses everyday. If you did then you would be shoeing every horse the same and most of us agree that the needs of horses vary.

I totaly agree with you that AFA Cert is educational and it does not stop there. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 04 Nov 2009 11:59 #56

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Craig Trnka in gray

Who said anything about contesting.

I did. I pointed out that I consider contesting to be a waste of time for anyone wanting to pass the CJF practical because one's time is better spent in the daily making and using of shoes specific to the test to the point one can make those shoes without thinking about the next step, not in forging never-to-be-nailed-on roadster shoes, French bars, preventer shoes, and similar stuff.

Motor skills are specific to an activity.

I thought the thread was about passing the CF and CJF?

As I see it, attending pre-cert clinics and daily practice specific to the practical's requirements will help a prospective CJF, as will avoiding forging/shoeing contests.

There is endless opportunity for the Student,

We are all students, but forging/shoeing contests are primarily an opportunity to become better contestants, not better CJF testees.

and when you always want to be the expert you end up as the main character in a Charles Dickens play eating spam on Christmas all by yourself!

Speaking of wannabe experts, one of us has a great big pile of shoes for an avatar, while the other's sig line is a Michelangelo quote that means, "I'm still learning."

Keep writing your good at it.

How nice to have your encouragement. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 04 Nov 2009 12:19 #57

  • Jeff Crane
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While I may not shoe every horse in handmades in preperation for the Journeyman test, I have been prepping feet and fit and finishing with the AFA guidelines in mind. This helps me do a better job when I do build shoes for horses and vice versa. I have to tell ya though and like I said before my horses feet are looking great using these standards of shoeing. I am looking foward to going to VA this weekend and talking to and watching some of the the best CJF's in the country. I always have questions to ask. Clinics helps me keep the fire burning in my gut to keep practicing and doing the best job for my clients.
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 04 Nov 2009 14:52 #58

  • chris bunting
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why dont you nail roadster shoes on?
chris
common sense is not needed when you have rules
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 04 Nov 2009 15:32 #59

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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chris bunting in gray

why dont you nail roadster shoes on?


No roadsters. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Journey to AFA CJF 04 Nov 2009 17:58 #60

  • solidrockshoer
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chris bunting wrote:
why dont you nail roadster shoes on?
chris

Because he can't cut them out with a plasma cutter.
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