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TOPIC: Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think???

RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 27 Sep 2009 01:49 #16

  • cuttinshoer
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Travis Reed wrote:
I just wonder what kind of doors will be open with such a lawsuit

I just see way to many variables in the owners start suing farriers.
This could start a lot aggravation..

1. Lets say a farrier is working on a horse and he pulls back hurting the farrier? Could he sue the owner?? On the grounds of the owner should have had the horse broke to stand for the farrier…

2. lets say a horse blows and the nails where not wrung off and it hurts the horse? Now they go to court and the lawyer argues the farrier was inexperienced.. Well would they determine that it is the horse owners place to know if the farrier is experienced enough to shoe the horse??

3. Lets say a horse blows and the nails where not wrung off and it hurts the horse? But the farrier was from a good farrier school and the lawyers argued the farrier should have been taught that in school.. Well then would that set up a law suit to sue the school because they should have made sure the farrier was ready to start shoeing..

4. Lets say the owner found the farrier off the AFA web site so the owner assumed he was a good farrier.. He was a CJF after all and the AFA indorsed him.. So now would the AFA be brought into the law suit..

You see where im going with this. This with a bunch of greedy lawers could end up a big mess.. But I do think carrying insurance is a smart thing.. But I would say the horse owner was just as guilty as the farrier and the horse should not have pulled back and said farrier would not have lost his balance..

My thoughts exactly Travis, Maybe we should be asking owners how good their insurance is before we work on their horse. Way to many variables, sadly the outcome will be determined by the judge's opinion.

Justin
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 27 Sep 2009 06:57 #17

  • Travis Reed
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Justin
Im no lawyer but I would think a good lawyer that the farrier used would do a counter suit on the horse owner after all it would be a civil suit not criminal.
And on a civil suit you can sue for anything ...the farrier also could go for lawyer fees and I would think loss of of income if he could get one person to say they would not use him because of what the horse owner had said… and I am guessing the horse owner in this case would have told folks that the farrier was incompetent and caused him/her a loss of wages. I don’t know but I would guess a good lawyer would lay that out in hopes of making the horse owner rethink the lawsuit… look at it this way …a horse kicks farrier or anyone causes injury we all usually chalk it up as the hazards of being around horses… pit bull owners get sued daily for bites even when you are on the pit bulls property ... What about the robbers that get hurt while robing a home owner.. They have sued …go figure …it would be a wreck
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 27 Sep 2009 14:19 #18

Travis Reed wrote:
Justin
Im no lawyer but I would think a good lawyer that the farrier used would do a counter suit on the horse owner after all it would be a civil suit not criminal.
And on a civil suit you can sue for anything ...the farrier also could go for lawyer fees and I would think loss of of income if he could get one person to say they would not use him because of what the horse owner had said… and I am guessing the horse owner in this case would have told folks that the farrier was incompetent and caused him/her a loss of wages. I don’t know but I would guess a good lawyer would lay that out in hopes of making the horse owner rethink the lawsuit… look at it this way …a horse kicks farrier or anyone causes injury we all usually chalk it up as the hazards of being around horses… pit bull owners get sued daily for bites even when you are on the pit bulls property ... What about the robbers that get hurt while robing a home owner.. They have sued …go figure …it would be a wreck

I agree with you Travis. The variable are huge. I have been injured a few times because of horse owners that have not been totally honest about their horses and it would not matter if the horse was held or tied. Hospital bills, loss of income due to time off. I always ask new clients how the horses stand for the farrier and expect them to be totally honest so that I know what I am getting into. Some horses are just down right mean and just want to kill you when they decide to, then you find out the hard way why the last farrier quit.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 27 Sep 2009 14:30 #19

  • chris bunting
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i thought that liability insurance was compulsory in business
common sense is not needed when you have rules
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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 27 Sep 2009 15:17 #20

  • tbloomer
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Ray K. Miller, Jr. wrote:
I forgot to mention the reason for the horse jerking was the fact that the farrier quick the horse.
Most often the reason I quick a horse is because the horse is jerking when I try to set a nail. I've also sliced up a frog, a leg, and my own hands and arms, with a hoof knife due to a horse jerking.

Far as I'm concerned a jumpy horse is in just as much risk of injury as I am - AND if I get hurt, I can't expect to win a settlement from the stable's insurance company. Most states have passed equine activity liability statutes that go something like this:

"Under Delaware Law, an equine professional is not liable for an injury to or the death of a participant in equine activities resulting from the inherent risks of equine activities, pursuant to 10 Delaware Code Section 8140.
"
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 27 Sep 2009 15:36 #21

The Farrier in the OP did 3 things wrong (allegedly):
1: Lied about having insurance.
2. didn't wring nail/s
3. Quiked the horse. (causing the injury)

I hope he learns a lesson, or two
If he gets sued . . . I hope he can deal with it.

Do I think we should have insurance ??? Yes
Do I have insurance ??? No.

I hope and pray, I don't need it.

Do I have Personal Injury Insurance ??? No
Do I need it ??? Yes

It is all so costly . . .
. . . yet can I afford to not have it . . .
Bradley SaintJohn

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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 27 Sep 2009 15:49 #22

  • Travis Reed
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Bradley
Do I have Personal Injury Insurance ??? No
Do I need it ??? Yes


i thought all yall up there have insurance ...paid for by the Gov...
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 27 Sep 2009 16:37 #23

Travis Reed wrote:
Bradley
Do I have Personal Injury Insurance ??? No
Do I need it ??? Yes

i thought all yall up there have insurance ...paid for by the Gov...
that is health insurance or
Workers Compensation, paid for by the employer
Being self employed, I am disqualified from WC

If you get hurt on the job and don't have WC
some claim it on regular health insurance.

So you would get fixed up alright, but no wage benefits.

So self employed injury insurance is purchased privately,
and is kind of expensive, and the coverage is less than desirable.

Untill this fall my working wife has been my insurance.
That helped a couple of times, but she quit, in order to school our children.
So if I get hurt, no more soup for me. :D

We are moving into winter now and the season is almost over.
As of last weekend I have a broken toe, so should be fine till spring. :o

I know,
I know, I should have had steel toes, and the what'chya macall it cover
but . . . :o
Bradley SaintJohn

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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 27 Sep 2009 21:39 #24

  • vthorseshoe
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Bradley St John's quote said it all for the majority of farriers everywhere US or Canada or else where.

Insurance is EXPENSIVE and then there is NO guarentee that they will pay in the event of a claim.. small print .....
the farrier did 3 things wrong. No question about it.
BUT he quite possibly did a 4th thing wrong......
Lack of experience.


It is well known I am an advocate for licensing.
In such a case he would have had to have met certain industry standards to have been able to hang out a shingle.

There is NO guarentee that he would have followed these standards after he was listed as a qualified farrier, but then it would make this case a bit more clear.

As a previous poster has asked; What ramifications will this or other cases have as a trickle effect on others associated or being recommended by......

A farriers board of review would be interviening here instead of speculation from so many varied opinions.

(sorry for my bad spelling)

my 2 cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 28 Sep 2009 03:57 #25

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tbloomer wrote:
Most often the reason I quick a horse is because the horse is jerking when I try to set a nail. I've also sliced up a frog, a leg, and my own hands and arms, with a hoof knife due to a horse jerking.

Far as I'm concerned a jumpy horse is in just as much risk of injury as I am - AND if I get hurt, I can't expect to win a settlement from the stable's insurance company. Most states have passed equine activity liability statutes that go something like this:

"Under Delaware Law, an equine professional is not liable for an injury to or the death of a participant in equine activities resulting from the inherent risks of equine activities, pursuant to 10 Delaware Code Section 8140.
"

That is a good point Tom, as a breeder I have to post that sign in clear veiw in my barn to be covered by that law in Indiana, it even says so on the bottom of the sign. Do we have to post that sign in our truck for clients to see to be legally covered under that law.

Justin Decker
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 28 Sep 2009 03:57 #26

  • Gary_Miller
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tbloomer wrote:
"Under Delaware Law, an equine professional is not liable for an injury to or the death of a participant in equine activities resulting from the inherent risks of equine activities, pursuant to 10 Delaware Code Section 8140."
Lets see if I have this correct. Since the "Equine" is a participant then the "Equine Professional" is not liable for the injury to or death of the "Equine".:confused::cool::eek::D
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 28 Sep 2009 04:13 #27

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Gary_Miller wrote:
Lets see if I have this correct. Since the "Equine" is a participant then the "Equine Professional" is not liable for the injury to or death of the "Equine".:confused::cool::eek::D

That is what it means Gary, but the way the law reads the equine professional can be held liable if negligence can be proven. In this case the farrier not taking the necessary measurements to protect injury from his nails after driving them he would be held liable. Lets say he was driving his last nail and the others where rung off or bent over and the last nail comes out and the horse jerks cutting himself, then he shouldn't be held liable. To many fine lines which are ultimately up to a judge.

Justin Decker
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"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 28 Sep 2009 05:00 #28

  • Travis Reed
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In this case the farrier not taking the necessary measurements to protect injury from his nails after driving them he would be held liable

The only issue with that is … who said leaving the nail out and not wrung off is the industry standard. For sure common sense would tell ya not to leave the nail out,, but the law don’t take common sense into effect I don’t think… so we are still back to square one…. If horse had not pulled away the farrier would not have lost his balance…
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 28 Sep 2009 05:11 #29

  • cuttinshoer
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That is true Travis to many fine lines.

Justin
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Would you and do you carry insurance. What do you think??? 28 Sep 2009 05:19 #30

cuttinshoer wrote:
That is a good point Tom, as a breeder I have to post that sign in clear veiw in my barn to be covered by that law in Indiana, it even says so on the bottom of the sign. Do we have to post that sign in our truck for clients to see to be legally covered under that law.

Justin Decker

Just because you have that sign in your barn doesn't help you. Those signs are pretty much useless, If you don't have the insurance to back it.

Justin Ebner
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