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TOPIC: Question for Norval

RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 23:16 #91

Phil Armitage wrote:
Greorge, you have to be kidding right? This sounds angry, racist and paranoid. Do good work, gain the trust and confidence of owners, trainers and Vets and you should not have to worry about what the other guy charges or does. With the years you have under your belt I expected more out of you.

George, I forgot and threatening.
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 00:09 #92

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Phil, you getting soft or what? This nut case comes here and tells us farriers that we all don't know what we are doing, we over charge and were not worth what were charging, and that he can do it better. You've seen his work on here, do you really think it's any good? He's always saying the certified farriers in his area do crud work, and that the Amish guy is better cause he charges less. Give me a break, Norval don't know his back side from a hole in the ground when it come's to real horseshoeing. He also doesn't realize we are running a business, not just tacking shoes on for cash. Heck, I have to pay insurance on vehicles, myself and family, and business, pay taxes, keep supplies up, go to clinics and certifications, feed my family, pay the mortgage. How am I suppose to do that if I do things like Novalue thinks we should? He's here taking pot shots at us and you can't even see it with your new rose colored glasses on. You back on some good meds or what? Were running a farrier business, not helping those to poor to own horses to get by. Let Norval do his thing up there, but he needs to quit being a jerk here, not all of us are blind and easy going, we can see his subtle jabs. I have absolutley no respect for the guy, he'd cut your hamstring mid swing in a golf round if he thought it would help him look good. He's just here for attention, good or bad. He's a joke.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 00:27 #93

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
Phil, you getting soft or what? This nut case comes here and tells us farriers that we all don't know what we are doing, we over charge and were not worth what were charging, and that he can do it better. You've seen his work on here, do you really think it's any good? He's always saying the certified farriers in his area do crud work, and that the Amish guy is better cause he charges less. Give me a break, Norval don't know his back side from a hole in the ground when it come's to real horseshoeing. He also doesn't realize we are running a business, not just tacking shoes on for cash. Heck, I have to pay insurance on vehicles, myself and family, and business, pay taxes, keep supplies up, go to clinics and certifications, feed my family, pay the mortgage. How am I suppose to do that if I do things like Novalue thinks we should? He's here taking pot shots at us and you can't even see it with your new rose colored glasses on. You back on some good meds or what? Were running a farrier business, not helping those to poor to own horses to get by. Let Norval do his thing up there, but he needs to quit being a jerk here, not all of us are blind and easy going, we can see his subtle jabs. I have absolutley no respect for the guy, he'd cut your hamstring mid swing in a golf round if he thought it would help him look good. He's just here for attention, good or bad. He's a joke.

Ben good points, but take it easy man. :)

Does it really matter, obviously you and many others including myself know better and so do a lot of horse owners, trainers and Vets. Best way to help out new farriers is to encourage them to continue their education. As time goes on skills get better, experience is gained and word gets around that your a competent and trusted farrier, business grows and grows. Before you know it your so busy that you have to plug in days for personal time with your family and get a haircut. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 00:30 #94

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall, CJF



Hey I like Tom's quote. Did he say this at Jaye's clinic? I was one of those folks at one time and still don't know a heluva lot. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 00:43 #95

  • Red Amor
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FORE!!:eek:

Have to admit I think at times Novel leads with his chin
It doesn't take much to end up being set upon by some of the olmates on here and I think at times some of the olboys are too hard on some of the plebs BUT if you chuck you hat in the ring and you leave yourself open to conjecture
ya best learn to keep your hands up around ya ears , less you'll have'em belted off ya boof head


I recon a man has a right to try and make an extra quid best he can anyway he can provided its legal
having said that I cant help hold some backyarders and X farriers with the same disdain as hoofters ,bua
particularly mouthy bastards that couldn't hack it in the Traditional Farriery and then go on the cream hunt while slagging the very Gentlemen n women that got them started in the first place as well as under cutting prices
they get and deserve the SORBENT treatment
I dont make a big issue of it any more I just politely tell them there is no help available anymore sorry
I can understand exactly where our George is coming from and I dont think hes being racious just calling a spade a spade colour n creed dont come into it
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 01:00 #96

  • brian robertson
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How come Norvie didn't answer my question concerning his real job being undercut by a newbie willing to work for half the money????????????

Pretty typical attitude held by some; "I got mine, the h e l l with everybody else"
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 01:15 #97

  • Rick Burten
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NorvalWilhelm wrote:
To me it is not about undercutting and more about not raising the prices. I stick to my old prices. Last year gas was high so everyone needed to increase prices for that reason. This year gas prices are lowered again and do any of you drop your prices to reflect this decreased cost?? NO, you increase prices because of the depressed economy.
You know this how? Personally I have held the line on my fees and when fuel cost more, I added a fuel surcharge to the bill. When the price of fuel went down, I simply removed the surcharge. So please try to avoid tarring me with that big ole' brush you are using.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 01:22 #98

Know you cost of doing business, figure a return of investment and a return on investment. Add a fair wage for your self.

I think today a fair wage for trims is $80 to $90. Simple set of shoes $150 to $175
Ray K. Miller, Jr. // Retired Farrier
Miller Land & LiveStock, Co. LLC
Equine Management Services, Inc.
www.raymiller.ws
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 03:08 #99

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Ray K. Miller, Jr. wrote:
I think today a fair wage for trims is $80 to $90. Simple set of shoes $150 to $175
I like the way you think!;)

Regardless, it also depends on your service area and other factors.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 04:00 #100

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall, CJF



Hey I like Tom's quote. Did he say this at Jaye's clinic? I was one of those folks at one time and still don't know a heluva lot. :)



Sorry Phil, but Norval is really just an ugly spot on the horseshoeing world. I can't take these backbiting wannabes.

As for Tom's quote, no not at Jaye's. He posted that in a chat on another board, but I thought it really rang true in todays next new thing world. Perimeter fit is but one way to shoe a horse, and any one who does this long enough knows that.:cool:
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 04:36 #101

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Phil, let me see if I can explain why I feel this way. We have about eight guys around here who have started to advertise on Craigs List because they can't get business any where else. Their leterally begging for work with lower prices. Now one kid fresh out of school I understand. I sent him a nice email and asked him what he knew and what kind of horse he worked on and tried to explain that if he wanted to stay in this business and make a living 45 or 50 for four shoes was not going to make it. He started to low and will be behind the eight ball his whole life. Once you start low it's hard to make big raises and get to a good price. I know, it's what I did and it was hard, it made me have to do 6 to 8 full shoes a day and a couple of trims to make a living. Even starting out that's to many. You can't learn if all your doing is assembly line shoeing. He listened and raised his prices and promised to get more education and get better. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. That's the kind of guy I want around.


Then there's the others. Most are advertising having 10 to 18 years of experience as full time farriers. They are charging 55 to 65 dollars for four shoes with discounts for two or more horses. One guy offered to trim for 15 bucks. These guys may be great shoers, they may be dingyer than aunt Bertha on valium, I don't know. But when they advertise, "Is your shoer charging to much?Then call me(whoever they are) and I will save you money and give you discounts." Now to me that's undercutting. I don't have a problem with them taking my customers, I'm full up as far as I want with new people calling still. But it sure does look bad to me. Heck, isn't the unwritten rule not to talk bad about other farriers work? Then why is it OK to steal work from someone? When you advertise that much experience, your not looking for dinks and wild horses and you won't get to many of them. People will think you know what your doing and go to you in this economy. That's just life. But I don't think it's none to cool.

Then there's the one who just make's me laugh cause he's a bit ridiculous. He say's he has like 20 years experience and graduated from one of the schools in OK. Then goes on to say he specializes in laminitis cause he has a MASTERS degree in lamminitis. I emailed him and asked him where I could go to school to get one of those. He won't even email back. It's just a lie he made up to get customers. His business, but it's still is a bad mark on the farrier industry when owners find out the truth. Just look at the thread in the owners area where the gal asked if we were all crazy. These guys are the ones out there making us look bad. If we don't want this to happen and don't want to HAVE to be certified and licensed, then we need to police our own a little bit to keep from looking like iddiots that can't do anything but work with our heads below our hind ends. If we only worry about ourself, the profession will never move forward, we all be just to dum to do anything else to most horseowners. They go to the vets and tell us to do wht the vet says. I'm all for working with them, but I ain't nobodies whippin boy.

The deal at Jaye's showed me what this profession can give a person. I met some people that make a great living by doing the well and charging what it is worth, trying all the while to drag the rest of us up to their level instead of beating us down. These guys were very forthcoming with info and teaching and critical comments when needed. But not one of them ever said to devalue yourself or your work. They all said to do good work get better and charge what it's worth. Then they gave us things to help us do that. That's how this profession should go, not on the whims of some owner who thinks he's smarter than us and does and whack and tack job for little or no money cause he thinks it's to easy a job to charge much for.

OK, off the soap box and on to the ignore button for Norval.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 10:45 #102

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
The deal at Jaye's showed me what this profession can give a person. I met some people that make a great living by doing the well and charging what it is worth, trying all the while to drag the rest of us up to their level instead of beating us down. These guys were very forthcoming with info and teaching and critical comments when needed. But not one of them ever said to devalue yourself or your work. They all said to do good work get better and charge what it's worth. Then they gave us things to help us do that. That's how this profession should go, not on the whims of some owner who thinks he's smarter than us and does and whack and tack job for little or no money cause he thinks it's to easy a job to charge much for.

That is all that needs to be said. :)

Have a great day Ben.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 10:47 #103

Rick Burten wrote:
You know this how? Personally I have held the line on my fees and when fuel cost more, I added a fuel surcharge to the bill. When the price of fuel went down, I simply removed the surcharge. So please try to avoid tarring me with that big ole' brush you are using.

Norval, I am doing the same as Rick.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 13:56 #104

Lets see if I remember correctly 35 years ago we were getting $15 for trims, $25 for resets and $30 for new shoes. 1 master farrier, 2 ap's five full shoings, 2 reset or 3 resets and 3 or 4 trims a day. Work 5.5 days a week. Under first horse left shop at 7:30 by 8 a.m. under first horse and quit at 4:30 p.m. back to shop by 5 p.m. Lunch was 30 min to 60 min. Some places fed us at the cook shack/bunkhouse with the horse crew or we went up to the truck stop or local watering hole for lunch.

Winter months a few less horse as many were turned out and not shod for the winter. The extra time was spent in the shop making blank shoes from bar stock for the spring, summer and fall shoeing season. Clients were 3 and 5 gaited, hackney Poines, Road horses, hunter/jumpers, TB race horses (used store bought shoes for these), a few QH using horses, a few draft teams. While I was doing my AP never once heated or placed cold steel/iron keg shoe on a horse. Everything was hand made. Coal forge for the first 10 years then switch to gas. Resets were reheated and refitted.

Why is it so hard for farriers to get there fee's up? No doubt the same reason it is for RE Appraisers, PP Appraisers and Auctioneers to get there fee's. We all suffer from the new people coming into the business trying to build a business using low fees as a foundation.

Business 101 figure your cost of doing business add to that a fair profit and you have your starting fee to charge.
Ray K. Miller, Jr. // Retired Farrier
Miller Land & LiveStock, Co. LLC
Equine Management Services, Inc.
www.raymiller.ws
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RE:Question for Norval 25 Sep 2009 14:26 #105

Rick Burten wrote:
I like the way you think!;)

Regardless, it also depends on your service area and other factors.

I agree Rick and prices will very some but for the most part a farrier doing their best work on each and every horse should be paid for that work.

The work that a poor farrier/horseshoer/platter does today may not show up for years in the horse as a lameness problems. However in time that poor work will result in some kind of lameness in the horses. I lost track of the number of lame horse we have taken in at the ranch. That ended up going sound and used every day on the hack string just do to correct triming and shoeing. When we got them they were headed to the kill pen.

An owner has a choice to provide the best farrier care or the poorest, there will always be owners who choose not to provide the best care for their horses. There will always be owners who think farriers and vets are paid to much. Those people may appear on my on my radar screen just as a small blip and then they are gone. I don't have time to deal with them nor should a good farrier. They will always be out there.

Take the junk tack auction in Madison, WI this past Monday the VFW Hall was full of people buying the junk new tack. Those are not the owners who buy tack from my wife at Mc Fairlanes Farm Store or order the Sharon Saare Saddles from us http://www.saddlefitting.net I also doubt that they are the ones that use the same farrier we use and are looking for a cheap farrier/horseshoer as well.
Ray K. Miller, Jr. // Retired Farrier
Miller Land & LiveStock, Co. LLC
Equine Management Services, Inc.
www.raymiller.ws
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