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TOPIC: Question for Norval

RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 09:58 #76

NorvalWilhelm wrote:
Is this what our country is boiling down to?? I have to get permission from guys like you to work, to charge what I want??? What if someone comes to me and asks me to machine a part for him. Can`t I give him a price that suits me. Again do I need your permission.
I don`t think so.

You certainly dont need our permission to undercut the prices of the professional farriers in your area. Nor does the amish guy.

However you are not ENTITLED to our respect. That must be EARNED. If you choose to dabble in the profession of farriery, use a stall jack instead of an anvil, use a hydraulic press instead of a forge, and subsidize the undercutting of prices in your area from the earnings of your two REAL professions you will most likely earn the respect of very few of the full time professional farriers on this board. From what I can see you have only gotten that from Phil.
Hernando Alonzo
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"When all has been said and done...... usually much more has been said than done. "
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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 10:55 #77

everypersonisahorsetoo wrote:
You certainly dont need our permission to undercut the prices of the professional farriers in your area. Nor does the amish guy.

However you are not ENTITLED to our respect. That must be EARNED. If you choose to dabble in the profession of farriery, use a stall jack instead of an anvil, use a hydraulic press instead of a forge, and subsidize the undercutting of prices in your area from the earnings of your two REAL professions you will most likely earn the respect of very few of the full time professional farriers on this board. From what I can see you have only gotten that from Phil.

Then your not seeing things too well. The number of farriers that have not commented about Norval clearly out number the very small amount of those who have. Looks to me that Norval's comments do not bother most farriers on here. I see another Joe that has found a forum to discuss common interest. Nothing more nothing less. The only respect I'm showing the guy is the same respect I would show anyone that I do not know, reading opinions on this forum hardly qualifies as getting to know someone. For all you know he is laughing his ass off every time he gets under someones Skin.

He can make one heck of a stall jack. Actually that was very impressive. Did a nice job, nice welds and heavy duty. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 12:18 #78

  • NorvalWilhelm
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everypersonisahorsetoo wrote:
You certainly dont need our permission to undercut the prices of the professional farriers in your area. Nor does the amish guy.

However you are not ENTITLED to our respect. That must be EARNED. If you choose to dabble in the profession of farriery, use a stall jack instead of an anvil, use a hydraulic press instead of a forge, and subsidize the undercutting of prices in your area from the earnings of your two REAL professions you will most likely earn the respect of very few of the full time professional farriers on this board. From what I can see you have only gotten that from Phil.

To me it is not about undercutting and more about not raising the prices. I stick to my old prices. Last year gas was high so everyone needed to increase prices for that reason. This year gas prices are lowered again and do any of you drop your prices to reflect this decreased cost?? NO, you increase prices because of the depressed economy. I just never bothered changing my price. Didn't lower it, didn't raise it. Just kept the same old price.
Last year $120 seemed to be the going price for a reset. Now it is suddenly $157 for a reset??? Why the sudden increase??
I still have feelings for the customer and their financial well being.
Sorry if that offends you.
but like my wife always says " you just don't know how to charge""
[SIGPIC]C:\Documents and Settings\norval\My Documents\My Pictures\jan22 017.jpg[/SIGPIC]
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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 12:25 #79

  • NorvalWilhelm
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Phil Armitage wrote:
He can make one heck of a stall jack. Actually that was very impressive. Did a nice job, nice welds and heavy duty. :)

Thank you Phil. Yesterday I used the bench top one and made up 8 shoes. I have an electric furnace idling at 1800F all the time and drop 2 shoes in at a time and work them on the bench top anvil. It works slick and I can do anything I want to a shoe.
After leveling I like to take a lick off them with a surface grinder.
[SIGPIC]C:\Documents and Settings\norval\My Documents\My Pictures\jan22 017.jpg[/SIGPIC]
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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 12:28 #80

halfmiler wrote:
linda,union would be nice but i dont see it happening anytime soon. sad thing is its not the guys that are here year round running the price down,its a few guys that come up for the summer from florida.

We can help you get a Union down there; if you want.
But it only works as good if the guys want it to!
With benefits.
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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 12:37 #81

everypersonisahorsetoo wrote:
You certainly dont need our permission to undercut the prices of the professional farriers in your area. Nor does the amish guy.

However you are not ENTITLED to our respect. That must be EARNED. If you choose to dabble in the profession of farriery, use a stall jack instead of an anvil, use a hydraulic press instead of a forge, and subsidize the undercutting of prices in your area from the earnings of your two REAL professions you will most likely earn the respect of very few of the full time professional farriers on this board. From what I can see you have only gotten that from Phil.

Very true.....and especially when they switch shoers; oweing every other shoer in town lots of unpaided shoeing bills; and you come along to do it cheaper. It breeds this type of contempt in the horse industry between owners/trainers/vets/ and other shoers.
It makes the horse industry in a whole-- look bad.
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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 12:46 #82

Gary Hill wrote:
Norval, she said same price or more. I do agree that we should be able to set our own prices, especially while we still can. This past weekend a very new guy stated that he got $90 ahead all day. I asked him how many did he do aday and he said, "only the ones y'all will not do, so I'm their last resort." I said good for him!

We have a whole bunch of guys here who taught themselves and have another job on the side.
One just told me the other day who is a horse owner; NO training; that this is the best gig ever. You can have your regular job; and without spending to much; get some supplies go out make spending money in cash! and make out like a bandit.
He didn't like my reply to him. He just laugh in my face; and he just said I can go as low as I want; because I don't make this my living.

He was putting on bar shoes on this horse without any training in barshoes and how they are applied; and without the vet/rads/ or anything else, or. He just hopes everything will be sound when he is done!!
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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 13:30 #83

  • wwhite1973
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Then your not seeing things too well. The number of farriers that have not commented about Norval clearly out number the very small amount of those who have.

Phil I have got to say that I wasn't going to even comment on this thread but your statement just brought out the bad in me. Number one I don't usually get involved in these P ing contests because I come here to learn and I do not look down on those who get in these contests. I find these threads quite amusing to read and follow them. Everybody needs their own entertainment. Your statement is like saying all horses need to be barefoot. If you really want to know Phil people like him who has a good paying job with good benefits and goes out and shoes part time really gets my "scoobbie doos" in a knot. Not because he may take business from me or any other experienced farrier in the area but because there are those starting out who really want to be full time farriers but these kind of guys hinder the start up of the guys who really want to be farriers. If he wants to be a farrier then quit his job and go out and save all the people who can't afford to own horses and I bet he won't be doing it so cheap for very long.

The second reason I never replied was because my grandma, God love her, always told me if I couldn't say anything good about someone then don't say anything at all.

Now Phil how many more do you think out here haven't responded because of the above reasons? Personally I don't think you are seeing the whole picture.

Wayne White
AFA Member #10310 IRB Thoroughbred Licensed Blacksmith
Please! Don't steal. The government doesn't like the competition!
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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 13:34 #84

  • NorvalWilhelm
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wwhite1973 wrote:
If you really want to know Phil people like him who has a good paying job with good benefits and goes out and shoes full time really gets my "scoobbie doos" in a knot. .

Wayne White

Full time?? Where did that come from??? I won't even drive across the street to pick up a new customer. I am just not interested in the extra work.

All the farriers I know started out as something else. They had a day job and worked evenings and weekends shoing to build up their clintel. Only after they had a good established practice did they quit their day job and go into it full time. I was just never interested in building up a list a clinents nor going into it full time. I was in a barn of 25 horses and just took care of their needs and never moved on.
I am not interested in buillding a business nor taking on new horses. If the horse comes to me I will do it but I won't go to them.
[SIGPIC]C:\Documents and Settings\norval\My Documents\My Pictures\jan22 017.jpg[/SIGPIC]
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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 13:35 #85

  • Gary_Miller
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NorvalWilhelm wrote:
To me it is not about undercutting and more about not raising the prices. I stick to my old prices.
In my opion if your price is not at least average for your area then you are undercutting. NorvalWilhelm wrote:
Last year gas was high so everyone needed to increase prices for that reason. This year gas prices are lowered again and do any of you drop your prices to reflect this decreased cost?? NO, you increase prices because of the depressed economy.
Actually I did drop my trim price back down after the gas came down., but only because I told my customers I would.
NorvalWilhelm wrote:
I just never bothered changing my price. Didn't lower it, didn't raise it. Just kept the same old price.
Most of the farriers I know did not raise their prices this year,. even though suppliers did.
NorvalWilhelm wrote:
Last year $120 seemed to be the going price for a reset. Now it is suddenly $157 for a reset??? Why the sudden increase??
So Norval is that what your charging $120 for a reset or are you lower than that?
NorvalWilhelm wrote:
I still have feelings for the customer and their financial well being.
I care about my customer just as much as anyone else, and I know they struggle just like the rest of us., However, I have to make a living as well as anyone else. If my customers have financial problems I work with them, maybe stretch out the work or just tell them to call me when they are ready. However I never lower my price just because a customer is financially hurting.
NorvalWilhelm wrote:
but like my wife always says " you just don't know how to charge""
After 47 years I would think you had learned to listen to your wife.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 13:41 #86

  • George Geist
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beslagsmed wrote:
I think this is the reason England passed the law to stop this sort of back yard farriers from bloching the profession.
Precisely

halfmiler wrote:
linda,union would be nice but i dont see it happening anytime soon. sad thing is its not the guys that are here year round running the price down,its a few guys that come up for the summer from florida.
Give me a call JM. We'll talk about it.

NorvalWilhelm wrote:
What I feel is this is a free country and anyone has the right to offer a service for whatever they feel they will accept. The local amish offer a reset of 4 for $20 Do you guys jump all over him?? Go tell him he has to charge more? Where is the freedom in that??
Matter of fact yes. As one who lives near a sizeable Amish community I can say with a degree of certainty that they ruin the industry for everybody else.(with the exception of Phil)
When I retire in a few years I intend to work as a handyman, doing various jobs . Do I have to go to the various trades and ask their permission??
Do I have the right to charge what I want?? Can I paint a room for some older couple and charge whatever I want or do I need to check out with a painter, get his permission, charge what he says I must??
Norval, I've no doubt in my mind that you're a handy guy. You can certainly do as you please to your own horses or your own house. You may be as satisfied as you please with mediocrity. What you choose to play at is what others try to earn their livings at. You have no such right to defacate where other people eat.(with the exception of Phil) Never did, never will. Sorry to say if you tried that where I grew up you'd have likely met with a tragic accident.
Is this what our country is boiling down to?? I have to get permission from guys like you to work, to charge what I want??? What if someone comes to me and asks me to machine a part for him. Can`t I give him a price that suits me. Again do I need your permission.
I don`t think so.
Guys like you is unfortunately what our trade and country are being reduced to yes. Your never having earned your place in the trade is what gives you this lack of appreciation for it.

As to your "free country" BS which is always the fallback of self-centered people, The American Supreme court ruled that free expression stops at the end of another man's nose. You have no right to harm others or their livelihoods. When you do so government has the right and duty to shut you down.

Going further back in history Moses said "There is no freedom without law". It's not all about you
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 13:50 #87

  • NorvalWilhelm
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Thank you guys for setting me straight. I obviously didn't see things right but now my eyes have been opened and I will behave.
Thank you
[SIGPIC]C:\Documents and Settings\norval\My Documents\My Pictures\jan22 017.jpg[/SIGPIC]
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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 14:31 #88

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NorvalWilhelm wrote:
Thank you Phil. Yesterday I used the bench top one and made up 8 shoes. I have an electric furnace idling at 1800F all the time and drop 2 shoes in at a time and work them on the bench top anvil. It works slick and I can do anything I want to a shoe.
After leveling I like to take a lick off them with a surface grinder.


Hi all,

All the shoeing I have seen from you is low nail, short shod does that mean you draw clips or even make the odd one? cuz you don't need a furnace to open or close a shoe?

Kevin
Kevin Joseph Wheeler

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if i was smart enought to spell properly I probably wouldnt be shoeing friggen horses for a living ay. Red Amor

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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 22:55 #89

Gary_Miller wrote:
So Norval is that what your charging $120 for a reset or are you lower than that?

Norval,

I notice you did not answer garys question.

What is your price for a 4 shoe reset?
Hernando Alonzo
Certified Professional Farrier

"When all has been said and done...... usually much more has been said than done. "
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RE:Question for Norval 24 Sep 2009 23:01 #90

George Geist wrote:
Matter of fact yes. As one who lives near a sizeable Amish community I can say with a degree of certainty that they ruin the industry for everybody else.(with the exception of Phil)

Sorry to say if you tried that where I grew up you'd have likely met with a tragic accident.

Guys like you is unfortunately what our trade and country are being reduced to yes. Your never having earned your place in the trade is what gives you this lack of appreciation for it.

George

Greorge, you have to be kidding right? This sounds angry, racist and paranoid. Do good work, gain the trust and confidence of owners, trainers and Vets and you should not have to worry about what the other guy charges or does. With the years you have under your belt I expected more out of you.
Phil Armitage, CF
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