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TOPIC: Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!!

RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 02:57 #61

  • Mike Ferrara
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calshoer wrote:
I have had to fail hard working dedicated students who tried SO hard, but missed by a tick. It's heartbreaking and I lose LOTS of sleep over it. :( But when the points don't add up, they don't add up.

I've failed (I should say postponed passing) many students but I never lost speep over it. My job was to train and prepare them and I didn't want them just barely trained.
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 03:18 #62

I have no problem with a time limit. I know that speed is not my strength and really would like to fix that problem for various reasons. Time is money, fidgety nervous horses, other peoples time etc...

This experience has shown me my strengths and weakness. The past few days I have timed myself on a few horses. My strength is trimming and hoof prep. Shaping and few too many trips to the horse is my weakness. Little things like paying attention to details like the shape of the foot as I trim and measuring the width helps a lot.

I can apply this in my everyday shoeing and probably get one or two more horses a day done and still do quality work.

It is all good. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 03:48 #63

Bill Adams wrote:
Phil,
Think perfect and fast and you'll roll through it. Approach it like you don't even care. Just do it like you're late for something.

You mean like when you check your cell phone and you see 10 missed calls from your wife and all of a sudden remember you were suppose to be home early to go out for dinner and still have to do the hind feet. :eek::)

Her common response is were you gabbing again?
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 04:04 #64

  • Gary_Miller
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
It's not an either/or thing. Time management in farriery is about breaking the whole into parts, then determining for yourself how to complete a part most efficiently, segueing seamlessly into the next part, then getting that done most efficiently, etc. How the job looks (finish) is just one of the parts, it's not the whole enchilada.
In the end it all about the horse having what it needs in order to do what is expected of it. While there is an order of steps that need to be taken in order to ensure the horse can do it work. Time management has nothing to do with it. Knowing the steps having what you need in order to complete the steps will all help in ensuring you can complete the task at hand with high quality work.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
No need for speed?
In the normal everyday work environment there is no need for speed only proficiency in order to provide high quality work.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
This will come as a distinct shock to anyone who has ever nailed a shoe on a runner in the paddock, a shoe on a barrel horse while the announcer is calling her name, or a show Arab that's cast a shoe in the ring.
These would not be considered the normal work environment, and while speed maybe important at times, proficiency is more important.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
More importantly, there's been lots of times I wanted to get a horse done in time to make my kid's Little League game or something similar.
Part of time management is proper scheduling of your day.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
If you've practiced managing your time, it's easy to kick it up a notch when you need to because you don't really have to think about the next step.
Knowing the steps needed in order to complete the task and ensuring you have the equipment necessary to get the job done. Proper placement of your tools and the horse so you don't have to make any necessary steps. All will help you to accomplish the task at hand quicker with more efficiency. Efficiency only happens when you make the proper movements.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
As I see it, a time limit on a farrier test is a Good Thing because it prepares you for the real world.
Proficiency and quality is more important than speed. If your proficient you don't have to think what you do you just do it.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
If you vaporlock when taking a test in front of your peers, what the hell are you going to do when thousands of spectators, a ring steward or paddock judge, the horse's trainer, and every other horse in the race or class are patting their collective feet and waiting for YOU to get done? When that happens, you can either meltdown or get done and the former if more probable than the latter if you haven't learned to manage your time.
Having confidence in your abilities and being proficient at the job has alot more to do with not "vapor locking" than speed will ever have.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 04:13 #65

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Phil Armitage wrote:
You mean like when you check your cell phone and you see 10 missed calls from your wife and all of a sudden remember you were suppose to be home early to go out for dinner and still have to do the hind feet. :eek::)

Her common response is were you gabbing again?
Nope that would be where proper scheduling of your day. Scheduling of your day includes things like kids ball games and dinner with your wife.

I would suggest three books for those who are having a hard time managing their time. "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" , "First Things First" and "Principle Centered Leadership" all by Steven Covey. These books will open eyes in ways you have yet thought of and will also help you with managing your business and personal life.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 04:16 #66

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Gary, the idea is to do really good looking functional work within a time limit. Not to do ****py work real fast, that get's you flunked. You need to have a funtional shoeing that looks good (trim, fit, and finish) and is high enough quality to get high enough scores to pass. Proficiency breeds speed, the more proficient you are the faster things go, but, add a clock and a couple of small mistakes, and it goes out the window. I've seen grown men who have shod for years lose it when small things go wrong. The clock is there for a reason, it's more about the mental aspect than just a time limit. So, if you want to keep ripping the test, fine, but until you try it and pass or fail your just blowing hot air that nobody cares about.

I disagree with you about those jobs Tom described as not being everyday. To some guys that's what they do more than just everyday shoeing like you and I. So for those, that's every day kind of work. Don't think the whole farrier industry is all alike. There's lot's of different types of shoeing.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 04:40 #67

  • Gary_Miller
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Ben

Having served as a scribe at several tests as well as having studied the requirements needed to past the test. I think I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to pass the test. I don't have to take the test in order to know what it takes to pass.

Also I'm not ripping the test. I feel the AFA test is probably the best test out there. I do think there are flaws in the test. The biggest being designed around competing.

While I don't know the statistics I would say that the biggest reason for failure to pass the practical is because going over time. This the replies on this tread shows enough evidence to convince me. That alone should be enough to say that there is a problem with that aspect of the test.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 04:47 #68

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray

Re: Time management in farriery


This is the one part of the practical that is not practical. I feel it more important how the work looks when your complete than how long it takes to do the work.

It's not an either/or thing. Time management in farriery is about breaking the whole into parts, then determining for yourself how to complete a part most efficiently, segueing seamlessly into the next part, then getting that done most efficiently, etc. How the job looks (finish) is just one of the parts, it's not the whole enchilada.

Having a time limit is great for competition. But serves no purpose when judging practical quality of work.

No need for speed? This will come as a distinct shock to anyone who has ever nailed a shoe on a runner in the paddock, a shoe on a barrel horse while the announcer is calling her name, or a show Arab that's cast a shoe in the ring. More importantly, there's been lots of times I wanted to get a horse done in time to make my kid's Little League game or something similar. If you've practiced managing your time, it's easy to kick it up a notch when you need to because you don't really have to think about the next step.

If you have to think about the next step, you're born dead.

As I see it, a time limit on a farrier test is a Good Thing because it prepares you for the real world. If you vaporlock when taking a test in front of your peers, what the hell are you going to do when thousands of spectators, a ring steward or paddock judge, the horse's trainer, and every other horse in the race or class are patting their collective feet and waiting for YOU to get done? When that happens, you can either meltdown or get done and the former if more probable than the latter if you haven't learned to manage your time.

Tom, i think you are wrong.Speed is something a farrier gets good at in time.
Unless they are professionals when they take the test.Your expectations are
to high........................
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 04:50 #69

Mike Ferrara wrote:
I've failed (I should say postponed passing) many students but I never lost speep over it. My job was to train and prepare them and I didn't want them just barely trained.

Mike,you use to teach? Or are you talking about apprentices?
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 05:19 #70

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Gary_Miller wrote:
Ben

Having served as a scribe at several tests as well as having studied the requirements needed to past the test. I think I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to pass the test. I don't have to take the test in order to know what it takes to pass.

I thought the same thing, but your wrong. Scribing and studying only show you how the test is done and what you need to do. You have no clue what it's really like until your under the gun (clock) and have to put it out there for all to see. You don't know what it takes or if you've got it until you've tried, taken the test and passed or failed. All your doing is guessing and pounding your chest saying I know what it takes, I can do it, I just don't want to. Fine, but until you take the test, all your doing is guessing and passing judgement based on observed info, not the real experience, they are different.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 05:34 #71

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Phil,
im sure everybody on the forum would love to see you pass the cf
including myself.

this is just my opinion your 10 years approx shoeing horses
your set in your ways now

we all get good and bad habbits
i would put the cf off for a bit

i would set a side one day a week for shoeing with hand-mades
making and fitting also practice 2 nights a week making hand mades

for horses that you shoe.
and if you get a chance to ride with a good cjf and sharpen yourself

up.

Knowing what you are doing will cut the time in half
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 10:16 #72

  • Mike Ferrara
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BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
I thought the same thing, but your wrong. Scribing and studying only show you how the test is done and what you need to do. You have no clue what it's really like until your under the gun (clock) and have to put it out there for all to see. You don't know what it takes or if you've got it until you've tried, taken the test and passed or failed. All your doing is guessing and pounding your chest saying I know what it takes, I can do it, I just don't want to. Fine, but until you take the test, all your doing is guessing and passing judgement based on observed info, not the real experience, they are different.

That would be true if he'd never taken any tests before. I don't know about Gary but I've probably taken hundreds of tests. Do you really think that one test is so very unique?
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 12:09 #73

smitty88 wrote:
Knowing what you are doing will cut the time in half

Very true.

When I get a moment I would like to expand on this statement in detail and hopefully show what the AFA can do for farriers.

Your right about me being set in my ways. I see that very clearly now thanks to the test.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 12:12 #74

Gary_Miller wrote:
Ben

Having served as a scribe at several tests as well as having studied the requirements needed to past the test. I think I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to pass the test. I don't have to take the test in order to know what it takes to pass.

Also I'm not ripping the test. I feel the AFA test is probably the best test out there. I do think there are flaws in the test. The biggest being designed around competing.

While I don't know the statistics I would say that the biggest reason for failure to pass the practical is because going over time. This the replies on this tread shows enough evidence to convince me. That alone should be enough to say that there is a problem with that aspect of the test.

Hi Gary you should take the test. Do all three parts, written, shoe board and practical. I have to say this has been exciting, rewarding and educational.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 12:33 #75

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Just passin through~ wrote:
Mike,you use to teach? Or are you talking about apprentices?

I taught scuba diving at the recreational, technical and professional levels for a number of years. In my much much younger days, I also taught music.
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