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TOPIC: Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!!

RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 09 Jun 2009 02:17 #46

  • Dan Puckett
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Good job on your written test, Phil.

It is amazing how an hour sounds like a long time to do a real good job, then it passes so fast. First time I took my CF test, I got my shoe fit passed with 4-5min to nail and clinch/ finish. Didnt make it- went over by about 15minutes, but I was allowed to finish. I liked that the tester went over my shoe job with me, told me what I did well, and what needed work.
Dan Puckett, CF
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 09 Jun 2009 02:19 #47

  • solidrockshoer
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Scott Chaney wrote:
"Do you want it fast or do you want it good" doesn't apply here. This is an exam that tests skill and proficiency. It's a simple request done to a simple prescription. Don't make it out to be more than it is.
Yes it does! In the real world, most clients I know don't give a rat's behind about how fast you are, as long as the finished job is beneficial to their horse and professional. That's why there's a job rate not an hourly rate. :cool: Time doesn't matter except in areas previously mentioned or if you're a show horse farrier and have to reset a shoe within a specified time. Why should good work be disqualified because it took a little longer?:(
And as far as "Speed comes with time unless you're doing NB, then you have to take into consideration all the explanations."....
Hey...don't sell your soul for money and you don't need to spend time trying to justify puttin junk on amazing animals.....
This was meant as an attempt at a little humor, sounds like you don't have any.:eek:;) Lighten up.
John
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 09 Jun 2009 02:27 #48

  • Bill Adams
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Gary_Miller wrote:
This is the one part of the practical that is not practical. I feel it more important how the work looks when your complete than how long it takes to do the work.

Having a time limit is great for competition. But serves no purpose when judging practical quality of work.

These statements would have more credence if they were offered after you had passed the test.
Anyone could pass the test with unlimited time. You could go to a feed store and buy tools after it started and learn to shoe before it was over.
The speed requirement shows that you can have skill and quality and are able to do it fast, as that is another example of skill.
Speed helps when you may need to replace a shoe in between classes or fix up an endurance horse that's on the clock.
I passed mine on the first try and I am slow. I mean if you don't like this speed, I know you ain't gona like the other one. Where it helped me in everyday work is on young horses and dink Arab show horses and if I'm running behind for a date with Mama, I can do fine work fast.

Phil,
Think perfect and fast and you'll roll through it. Approach it like you don't even care. Just do it like you're late for something.

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 09 Jun 2009 04:43 #49

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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There's reasons for the time limits like getting a bunch of guys tested in one day, not a week. Some times horses are used for two CF tests, one person does the front the other the hind. Don't want one guy to take all day and the other all night. Those are just obvious.

The big reason from my point of view is that it's to get into the testees head. No matter how good you are or how fast you think you are, when they start calling times out, you get worried, even if it's just a little. Some guys don't know how to handle the pressure yet and it kills them, but they learn from it and soon get past that. But make one mistake and have time seem to get away a little, and you start to sweat, and then it snow*****. You either recover and move on, or you fall apart and fail. It's part of the test. If you don't like it don't take it.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 09 Jun 2009 11:03 #50

  • Scott Chaney
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John Emsley wrote:
Yes it does! In the real world, most clients I know don't give a rat's behind about how fast you are, as long as the finished job is beneficial to their horse and professional. That's why there's a job rate not an hourly rate. :cool: Time doesn't matter except in areas previously mentioned or if you're a show horse farrier and have to reset a shoe within a specified time. Why should good work be disqualified because it took a little longer?:(

John. No. It. Doesn't. Once again, the test is THE standard, NOT the clients (how many of THEM do you know that could recognize a decent job if the shoes don't come off?). Look, it's not like they're asking you to build Rome in a day. It's two shoes in an hour. Cold. No clips, no mods, just a plain and simple shoe job. If you can't put two cold shoes on in an hour, I submit you are not very proficient at what you do, and therefore not very good at it.. And the test agrees with me. And clients DO care how fast you are. If you don't believe me, try this: Take two hours to shoe...no...take two and a quarter hours (since an hour a pair is too fast) ...take a break...take a half hour to trim one...take a break...trim another...
Assuming a little set up time, you've just busted 4 hours and only got a full set and two trims done. Even at 53, my clients would want to know what was up.
Bottom line, you're disqualified for time. Like I said, the CF practical aspect should be a bread and butter job for anyone that has been at this game long enough that has any pride in calling themselves a farrier. I got about 5 minutes warning before I tried it, and if I can do it....an ol' hippie mule shoer...why...you high falutin' types oughtta be able to slide through it like breakin sticks.:cool:

John Emsley wrote:
This was meant as an attempt at a little humor, sounds like you don't have any. Lighten up.
John
Oh I have it...it's just crusted over and coated in cynicism that comes from seein literally hundreds of newbies come into this game all puffed up and end up yelpin their butts back to the house with their tails between their legs because it's too tough on their tender hineys.
....that...and all the people who were gonna "revolutionize" horseshoeing over the years. I'm still waiting...
I was kinda hopin for an automatic trim gadget and a shoe mold that shapes, drives, clinches, finishes and sands in one fell swoop...sigh...but so far I haven't heard of anything like that...

That bein said, anyone who sets out to take this set of exams, is okay in my book. It takes guts to have your peers not only look at your "finished work", but watch you do it.
Phil has a good attitude about it. The journey is a learning process. And a great one at that.
It's the guys who quit that I don't get.
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 09 Jun 2009 12:29 #51

  • solidrockshoer
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Scott Chaney wrote:
Yes it does! In the real world, most clients I know don't give a rat's behind about how fast you are, as long as the finished job is beneficial to their horse and professional. That's why there's a job rate not an hourly rate. Time doesn't matter except in areas previously mentioned or if you're a show horse farrier and have to reset a shoe within a specified time. Why should good work be disqualified because it took a little longer?
John. No. It. Doesn't. Once again, the test is THE standard, NOT the clients (how many of THEM do you know that could recognize a decent job if the shoes don't come off?). Look, it's not like they're asking you to build Rome in a day. It's two shoes in an hour. Cold. No clips, no mods, just a plain and simple shoe job. If you can't put two cold shoes on in an hour, I submit you are not very proficient at what you do, and therefore not very good at it.. And the test agrees with me. And clients DO care how fast you are. If you don't believe me, try this: Take two hours to shoe...no...take two and a quarter hours (since an hour a pair is too fast) ...take a break...take a half hour to trim one...take a break...trim another...
Assuming a little set up time, you've just busted 4 hours and only got a full set and two trims done. Even at 53, my clients would want to know what was up.
Bottom line, you're disqualified for time. Like I said, the CF practical aspect should be a bread and butter job for anyone that has been at this game long enough that has any pride in calling themselves a farrier. I got about 5 minutes warning before I tried it, and if I can do it....an ol' hippie mule shoer...why...you high falutin' types oughtta be able to slide through it like breakin sticks.
Scott, I understand your point, you don't seem to understand mine.:( Naturally speed and fluency go hand in hand but the finished product has the last say. Similar to the adage "Price is forgotten long after quality is remembered." for those afraid to charge a decent rate for their work. I know of an older farrier that starts a horse and will leave him in the cross ties while he goes for a nape, come out and finish the job. :eek: People still bring horses to him and the work is not all that great either. Go figure.

Oh I have it...it's just crusted over and coated in cynicism that comes from seein literally hundreds of newbies come into this game all puffed up and end up yelpin their butts back to the house with their tails between their legs because it's too tough on their tender hineys.
....that...and all the people who were gonna "revolutionize" horseshoeing over the years. I'm still waiting...
We all could have the same attitude, that have been around for a while. How would that benefit any of us? I choose to think positive and have no space for rent between the ears. :D

By the way Phil, I've seen your work on here and you could do my horses any day (if I had any) and your attitude is great. You can't help but succeed.
John
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 09 Jun 2009 13:11 #52

  • calshoer
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I realize the AFA practical test is timed for the reason of testing proficiency along with skills.
However given that most people take more time in a test situation to do the very same quality they would do in the field in half the time, the strict cut off off seems unfair if the applicant is only a few minutes away from finishing. Therefore I like the idea of deducting points for every few minutes of overtime.That way an outstanding job that took just a few minutes extra would pass, but a mediocre job that also took too long would not.
To me that is more realistic. .It is the way I score my practical finals on my school and the way ELPO scores its practicals. The time deductions add up fast so its still a good marker of efficiency, but IMO a more fair test of the practical skills. Just my opinion)
BTW when I took my AFA CF I did pass my practical portion, so I've been there done that and know how fast that hour flies by ...my score on that part was 81.5)
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 09 Jun 2009 13:15 #53

  • Mike Ferrara
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John Emsley wrote:
By the way Phil, I've seen your work on here and you could do my horses any day (if I had any) and your attitude is great.

I'd let Phil shoe my horse (I do have one) but he only has an hour. He's trying to practice for the test, right?
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 09 Jun 2009 13:19 #54

  • Mike Ferrara
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calshoer wrote:
I realize the AFA practical test is timed for the reason of testing proficiency along with skills.
However given that most people take more time in a test situation to do the very same quality they would do in the field in half the time, the strict cut off off seems unfair if the applicant is only a few minutes away from finishing. Therefore I like the idea of deducting points for every few minutes of overtime.That way an outstanding job that took just a few minutes extra would pass, but a mediocre job that also took too long would not.
To me that is more realistic. .It is the way I score my practical finals on my school and the way ELPO scores its practicals. The time deductions add up fast so its still a good marker of efficiency, but IMO a more fair test of the practical skills. Just my opinion)
BTW when I took my AFA CF I did pass my practical portion, so I've been there done that and know how fast that hour flies by ...my score on that part was 81.5)

Lots of tests have strict time limts. I don't think that makes a test "unfair".
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 09 Jun 2009 13:56 #55

  • Bill Adams
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So Patty,
An ELPO certification candidate can pass a test even if it takes him an hour and ten minutes (for conversation's sake) if his quality is great. If it takes an hour and eleven minutes, and has too many points penalized, he fails. How is that fair? How is that any different?

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 01:39 #56

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Gary_Miller in gray

Re: Time management in farriery


This is the one part of the practical that is not practical. I feel it more important how the work looks when your complete than how long it takes to do the work.

It's not an either/or thing. Time management in farriery is about breaking the whole into parts, then determining for yourself how to complete a part most efficiently, segueing seamlessly into the next part, then getting that done most efficiently, etc. How the job looks (finish) is just one of the parts, it's not the whole enchilada.

Having a time limit is great for competition. But serves no purpose when judging practical quality of work.

No need for speed? This will come as a distinct shock to anyone who has ever nailed a shoe on a runner in the paddock, a shoe on a barrel horse while the announcer is calling her name, or a show Arab that's cast a shoe in the ring. More importantly, there's been lots of times I wanted to get a horse done in time to make my kid's Little League game or something similar. If you've practiced managing your time, it's easy to kick it up a notch when you need to because you don't really have to think about the next step.

If you have to think about the next step, you're born dead.

As I see it, a time limit on a farrier test is a Good Thing because it prepares you for the real world. If you vaporlock when taking a test in front of your peers, what the hell are you going to do when thousands of spectators, a ring steward or paddock judge, the horse's trainer, and every other horse in the race or class are patting their collective feet and waiting for YOU to get done? When that happens, you can either meltdown or get done and the former if more probable than the latter if you haven't learned to manage your time.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 01:50 #57

  • calshoer
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So Patty,
An ELPO certification candidate can pass a test even if it takes him an hour and ten minutes (for conversation's sake) if his quality is great.
Yes basically he aces the quality but gets small amount of time deductions he would pass.
If it takes an hour and eleven minutes, and has too many points penalized, he fails.
For clarity lets say he also took an hour and ten minutes (same time as the other guy) but had a number of dections for poor quality. the total score would fail him .In other words if your going to go a little overtime ,it better be a darn good finished job.
How is that fair? How is that any different?
I think its fair. the applicant needs to try to be on time because they lose points for being slow. The slower they are the more points are deducted. I feel it is far more fair then cutting them off totally for just a minute or two.Shoeing should not be a race. In my opinion, It should be quality that counts first, then time after that.

Oh yeah and people here have failed because the job was OK but the time was too slow. the time points do add up fast so it's not like being overtime is a "gimme". .
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 02:30 #58

  • Bill Adams
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So Patty,
What it boils down to, is that if you take too much time on the ELPO test you fail. Exactly like the AFA test. Just kind of mushy at the end.

I like what Ralph Casey said about being a tester but not wanting to fail a hard working Farrier, so he didn't. I'll bet he cashed the check though.

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 02:33 #59

  • Bill Adams
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calshoer wrote:
. In my opinion, It should be quality that counts first, then time after that.

Agreed. And when a person can do both, they are certified.

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Phil Armitage scored a 95 on his CF written !!!! 10 Jun 2009 02:45 #60

  • calshoer
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So Patty,
What it boils down to, is that if you take too much time on the ELPO test you fail. Exactly like the AFA test. Just kind of mushy at the end.
Good analogy. Except it isn't what I would call 'mushy' because it is a precise scoring system, including the time faults, to remove subjectiveness.
I like what Ralph Casey said about being a tester but not wanting to fail a hard working Farrier, so he didn't. I'll bet he cashed the check though.
I have had to fail hard working dedicated students who tried SO hard, but missed by a tick. It's heartbreaking and I lose LOTS of sleep over it. :( But when the points don't add up, they don't add up.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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