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TOPIC: Under Cut Pricing

RE:Under Cut Pricing 25 May 2009 15:36 #61

  • Gary_Miller
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George Geist wrote:
Proper way to deal with that is to ask the individual if he'd been paid. If he had it would have been no problem. If not, you're creating a big problem.
If a customer takes a horse to a new barn then their farrier should be able to go do the job without any problems.

George Geist wrote:
Newer guys don't understand proper protocal and schools encourage guys to be that way too.
Proper protocol?

George Geist wrote:
He's doing the same job as me he oughta be getting paid the same as me.
No job in the whole world pays everyone the same wage. Wages are set by education level, experience, and most importantly how well you negotiated your wage.

George Geist wrote:
By undercutting it holds averages down.
This we can agree on.

George Geist wrote:
Works the same as the minimum wage.
Minimum wage: Once again the government forcing its will on the business owner.

George Geist wrote:
In this respect everybody's pay is set by the entry level.
Once again who should set the pay scale, the licensing authority, the consumer, or the buisness owner, or someone else.

George Geist wrote:
Nothing that's why I advocate testing.
How will testing earn you a place in the business? What should be tested? Who should administer the test?

George Geist wrote:
As Gary Miller would say by who's standard? Who's to say who's as good as who?
Valid question of which you or anyone else have yet been able to answer.

George Geist wrote:
. Now I work alongside guys who can't even make a horseshoe.
While I feel it important to have at least the minimum shoe making skills. Being able to make a shoe has no effect how well one can apply a keg shoe to the hoof.

George Geist wrote:
Being good is really overrated.
Your right to succeed in any buisness it the service you provide that most important to the consumer.

George Geist wrote:
Because they've earned their place in the trade.
How does taking and passing a test earn you a place in the trade.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 25 May 2009 15:43 #62

  • Gary_Miller
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OLDTRUCK wrote:
Depending on the miles I must travel I can shoe the horse for under $15.
That covers it all even taxes on the truck.:D
Then you really have no idea what it costs you to shoe a horse. $15 won't even cover the cost of the shoes, nails, rasp wear, and propane for shaping the shoes. An we have not even touched you other overhead costs.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 25 May 2009 15:49 #63

  • Gary_Miller
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George Geist wrote:
Racing commissions tests are especially good because they are geared toward that particular specialty.
George, I went to the PA commission site to find get some information on the test and rules for shoeing on the track and could not find them. Could you please direct me to proper place on their site.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 25 May 2009 15:52 #64

Maybe he still has shoes and nails that he bought in 1962
and folks bring the horse to him . . .

and so he makes $13.80 an hour

Can't make that kinda money at MacDogsBreath. :D
Bradley SaintJohn

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RE:Under Cut Pricing 25 May 2009 15:58 #65

  • Mike Ferrara
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Gary_Miller wrote:
No job in the whole world pays everyone the same wage. Wages are set by education level, experience, and most importantly how well you negotiated your wage.

The acception to that is union jobs. Everybody gets the same whether they're any good or not. Seniority is rewarded but performance can't be rewarded.


Minimum wage: Once again the government forcing its will on the business owner.

It's the government forcing their will on the employee too. While everyone wants to make more money, there are plenty of people who would be willing to work for less than minimum wage rather then be unemployed.

How will testing earn you a place in the business?

It doesn't. Performance on the job does.

Valid question of which you or anyone else have yet been able to answer.

Who's standard? If you guys don't want to use the clients standard then lets use my standard.

If you guys don't want to use my standard that's ok but I'm going to.
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 25 May 2009 16:08 #66

  • Mike Ferrara
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Bradley-1stChoice wrote:
Maybe he still has shoes and nails that he bought in 1962
and folks bring the horse to him . . .

and so he makes $13.80 an hour

Can't make that kinda money at MacDogsBreath. :D



Maybe. However, offering a product at or even below cost in order to gain market share or exposure within the market isn't exactly a new idea.
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 25 May 2009 16:30 #67

  • Mike Ferrara
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Originally Posted by George Geist
Racing commissions tests are especially good because they are geared toward that particular specialty.

Gary_Miller wrote:
George, I went to the PA commission site to find get some information on the test and rules for shoeing on the track and could not find them. Could you please direct me to proper place on their site.

Shoot Pat a PM. He'll tell you about it. Better yet, maybe He'll post something about it in this thread. I don't recall that it was so specific to the specialty.
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 25 May 2009 16:36 #68

Mike Ferrara wrote:
Maybe. However offering a product at or even below cost in order to gain market share or exposure within the market isn't exactly a new idea.
It's the get you in the door, marketing.
$1 burger, sure, but you are for sure, gonna get the fries and a drink,
Bang 8-12 bucks.

I have been thinking of offering: FREE HORSESHOEING,

Extras:
Trim $10 a foot,
Shoes $19.99 each,
Nails $1.10 each,
Nice rasp finish FREE,
Hoof dressings FREE
Handwritten bill FREE,
Listening to my winning personality FREE.

Me leaving the property . . . Priceless. :D
Bradley SaintJohn

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RE:Under Cut Pricing 25 May 2009 17:29 #69

  • Mike Ferrara
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Well...the demand for one farrier is NOT the same as the demand for another. Therefor it's completely reasonable that one makes more than the other.

I know a guy who just keeps getting too busy and just keeps raising his price. It's truly inspirational.

On the other end of the spectrum are the guys who are new or new to the area and the demand for them is ZERO. The phone aint ringing.

It seems completely reasonable that the guy in the later case would have to charge less...or if you're George, I guess you can wiggle your butt. LOL

The idea of equal work for equal pay sounds good but it just doesn't fly because there are an almost infinate number of things that influence demand.
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 25 May 2009 22:18 #70

  • Gary_Miller
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Who's standard? If you guys don't want to use the clients standard then lets use my standard.

If you guys don't want to use my standard that's ok but I'm going to.
Now that is a standard I can live with.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 26 May 2009 00:05 #71

  • George Geist
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
The associations appear to have the same problems that a lot of farriers are apparently having. They are failing in making the sale and they want to blame everybody else. There couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the product being offered, right? The real test is in servicing the market and it's the associations who are failing that test.

Mike Ferrara wrote:
I don't care what they do. If I ever decide to go into the association business, I'll give it some thought.
Not so fast now. You took another shot at the associations. What is wrong with what they do and what would you have them do differently?

For those out there who are involved in associations what must they do to get Mike F to join?
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 26 May 2009 01:41 #72

  • Travis Reed
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(George )
Gee when I was in my 20s I got a lot of giggly teenage girls hired me because they liked my butt.


I feel this issue alone has held me back in this trade. My rear end is just wide and flat my chaps hang kinda like a gangsters pants. I have to wear overalls or I get the plumber crack thing going on.

This tread has been very informative and thanks Rick for being upfront about what really went on during those times licensing.
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 26 May 2009 03:30 #73

  • Dan Puckett
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Back to the original question (and I paraphrase)- what to do about the low rent hacks? I dont do a darned thing- they will be their own ruin; if they dont think any higher of themselves, neither will anyone else. There are a few here who have WATCHED a farrier shoe, bought some tools and an old anvil, and call themselves a farrier. One gets $45 a horse, the other $40. I dont even know what they charge for resets or trims, and dont care. I sell myslef on the fact I went to one of the premier schools in the country, learned from many of the best, and hold myself to a high standard of farriery. If I'm not the highest priced guy in my area, I'm one of the highest ($75 full set). I also show up on time, am sober, and dont beat on their horses. My rig is clean and somewhat organized, and I try to convey a professional image.

After figuring my operating costs (rig is paid for, and I intend to run it into the ground), I clear about $30 per horse, inlcuding taxes, insurance, etc, etc. Figure 2 hours (now- I'm getting more efficient each time) per horse, and I make $15 per hour. Not bad for this area- more than my fiancee makes after 6 years at her job as an office manager. Point is, I dont worry about the cheapskates- I dont want to be put in the same category as they are, and dont want their customers.

Dan
Dan Puckett, CF
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 26 May 2009 04:08 #74

  • Rick Burten
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Dan.

Does your fiancee get paid vacation time? Paid sick leave? Any health insurance? Does she have to supply all her own office supplies out of her pocket? Does she work weekends and/or holidays? Does she work an 8 hour day ? If she works more than 8 hrs/day, does she get paid overtime pay? Is a pension plan from the company available to her?
If she calls in sick or injured is her boss likely to fire her? etc.......

Somehow, $15.00/hour doesn't sound too appealing to me as a farrier.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 26 May 2009 17:53 #75

This is a very big concern within the industry, itself.

One of the most biggest concerns in undercutting, and selling a service so cheaply is that it breeds "contempt".

What I mean by this is;

1. that owners feel that this profession is not worth being paid at professional prices, inasmuch, as other professions.

2. It also breeds contempt among some trainers who feel that feet are just not that important to the over all training of the horse.

3. It breeds contempt and disrespect among vets; who need us; just as much as we need them.

4. It breeds contempt and disrespect among other farriers.
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