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TOPIC: Under Cut Pricing

RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 18:01 #16

  • westtxshoer
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I wish I had your problem. Here, most everyone else charges $55 for keg shoes cold and I am one of the highest (if not the highest) at $75. Trims though, are $30. I don't have many people balk at the cost of the trims, but the shoeing price is a different story. I have been able to convince a few on the benefits of hot fitting which I charge $85 for. Many had never seen it before.
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 18:17 #17

  • George Geist
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John Emsley wrote:
George have you ever operated in such a system you're advocating?:( How do you know it would be better? Another question because I don't think you have. If I wrong, question retracted. ;)
John
Yessir, is no price cutting on the racetrack. System works well.
Am also old enough to remember when Illinois operated under that "system" the guys there were the highest paid in the country.
I don't think we need a solution. I'm happy with the price I get and the number of horses I have to shoe.

I just got home from shoeing a couple of local horses. I charged more than 4 times what the Amish charge and about double or so what lots of other locals are charging. But...apparently those solutions weren't working out well so the client paid my price.

It's all the same to me. I have plenty of other things I could do with my Sunday morning and I have to leave early in the morning to go shoe where I charge even more.

Look Ma, no license! Gosh, all the political and constitutional theory/ideology aside, If people are only willing to pay you $50 to shoe a horse then maybe that's what your work is really worth.

Instead of using the force of law (I prefer the term tyranny) to get paid what you want, maybe your time would be better spent getting better and/or better positioning yourself within the market. Accept some responsibility instead of looking to government to fix it for you.

The cheap guys mostly get the lousy clients and horses anyway. They're welcome to them.
Do we see a pattern here?
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 18:32 #18

  • solidrockshoer
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George Geist wrote:
Yessir, is no price cutting on the racetrack. System works well.
Am also old enough to remember when Illinois operated under that "system" the guys there were the highest paid in the country.

Geeoorrge, I think you're stretching it a little here. :( First I think there is price cutting there and secondly, an enclosed community is much different than a wide open market. One might be able to exert pressure to toe the line in the closed arena but who knows what goes on in a wide open market. There's always Norvals around the corner. :D It all boils down to what you feel you're worth and the results of your work, IMO, and I sure don't need a governing body to tell me that.
John
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 18:43 #19

  • Mike Ferrara
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westtxshoer wrote:
I wish I had your problem. Here, most everyone else charges $55 for keg shoes cold and I am one of the highest (if not the highest) at $75. Trims though, are $30. I don't have many people balk at the cost of the trims, but the shoeing price is a different story. I have been able to convince a few on the benefits of hot fitting which I charge $85 for. Many had never seen it before.

In my experience, having a specialty goes a long way in helping you get in the doors where the money is better.

Many horse owners are people of modest means...maybe the ones that have horses in their back yard that aren't used for anything or do a little trail riding or the occasional 4H thing...They just aren't looking to pay more for a shoeing than they pay on their mortgage. If you limit yourself to that market then you're stuck with the constraints of that market.

So...if the government did take control of the market in a way that forced farrier prices up (assuming they could), what's going to happen? A lot of those people would just get rid of their horses, do their own or have a neighbor do it. Just because someone has a horse doesn't mean they have, or are willing to spend, big money. I myself would never pay a farrier what I charge. Owning a horse just isn't worth that much to me. As a horse owner, I am NOT the kind of client that I would look for. It doesn't bother me that someone else is willing to do it though.

All this is business/marketing 101.
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 18:55 #20

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
Do we see a pattern here?

Of course you do. I shoe the horses on my book. I run my own business in my own way for the purposes of supporting my family. I don't get any help doing the work so I'd rather not have any help making the rules. There's room for improvement but things are working out ok. If I can do it so can the next guy. If the next guy isn't willing to do what it takes then I'll ask him to take responsibility and not bother the rest of us too much with his whining.

Say yes to individual liberty, individual responsibility, competition and the inovation, profit and growth that follows.
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 19:00 #21

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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OK Mike, we know your stance on govt. involvement, but that's not what I asked. Read the first entry in the thread and answer those questions, that's what I was wondering about. These cut throat guys just drive me crazy because I see it as stpidity. I was wondering if others were seeing the same crp. How much does it cost you to shoe a long footed horse? Could you make a living if you had to cut that price by 30% or more? Isn't that why you travel so far to work is you can't make a good living around where you live because the prices are so low?
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Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 19:43 #22

  • Gary_Miller
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George Geist wrote:
Licensing would solve it guys;)
George, licensing will not stop so call "under cutting of pricing" and you know it.

People will still charge what they want in order to gain work, and that's a fact that licensing cannot, has not, and never will change in any field of work.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 19:50 #23

  • Gary_Miller
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George Geist wrote:
I instead challenge everybody to come up with a different solution. I'm betting there will be none.
Run your own business with the up most ethics, continue to improve yourself, treat every customer with respect, give every job your best effort, and provide good service at a reasonable price.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 19:58 #24

  • Gary_Miller
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George Geist wrote:
Yessir, is no price cutting on the racetrack. System works well.
I call BS on this one. Anyone can get a license to shoe on the track in Idaho by just paying a $50 fee, a $15 back ground check, and a letter from a owner/trainer if its your first time applying. Everyone charges what they want to charge, so under cut pricing can occur.

May as well have no license at all as the only one making any money is the government ran racing commission.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 20:07 #25

  • Mike Ferrara
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BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
OK Mike, we know your stance on govt. involvement, but that's not what I asked. Read the first entry in the thread and answer those questions, that's what I was wondering about. These cut throat guys just drive me crazy because I see it as stpidity. I was wondering if others were seeing the same crp. How much does it cost you to shoe a long footed horse? Could you make a living if you had to cut that price by 30% or more? Isn't that why you travel so far to work is you can't make a good living around where you live because the prices are so low?

I think I answered some of them in my first post. I could make a profit shoeing for those prices locally. In fact, I'd be making quite a bit more than I could make at the other jobs available locally. Some of these "cut rate" don't think they're cut rate...they think they're raking it in.

What it costs me to shoe a "long footed horse" is comparable to what it costs any of you to shoe any horse...a little more in materials and the work/cost of hand made shoes for a new setup. The materials are a very small portion of the whole thing. They're sometimes a little work to set up new but I can reset them as fast, or faster than I can reset anything else. There are guys out there doing them pretty cheap and I could do it to with some adjustments. the bill isn't based on what it costs but rather, what the client is willing to pay.

Yes, I see the same stuff. I don't know if it's ****** though. If a farrier is happy living where they live and working for what they're getting, what's ****** about that? As I said, I think even the cheap farriers around here are amoung the higher paid blue collar folks in the area.

I do travel some to get to the work but that's a choice. I also have the option of moving closer to the work. No matter where I live there would be some traveling just because the "long footed" horses are spread out. I have considered (and someday might actually do it) concentrating more on local work. If I had to stay local, I would either be shoeing for less (to get enough volume) or I'd have to move. I've even thought of setting things up so folks could drop their trailor and horses off on their way to work and pick them up on their way home. According to my calculations, I could make the same profit for the same amount of time invested at half the price if I stayed close to home. However, driving is easier than shoeing horses so that thought is on the back burner.

I don't just travel because of the money. For the time being anyway, I like my work and I like where I live and that means some travel.

After my last engineering job moved out of the country, I would have probably had to move or comute really far, to get a comparable job anyway. All this is very sad and I hope at least a few of you are crying for me, LOL, but I knew this could happen when I let a company move me out here in the middle of nowhere. The cost of living is lower here but so are the wages and employment oportunities are fewer. Just another choice.

Look, this trade has a pay range. It's a pretty wide range and there are things we can do to give ourselves an edge. At the same time, there are other career choices. It sometimes may be that if a guy wants to make what a corporate manager makes, he might have to get a job as a corporate manager and live in a city where those corporations so often have their offices.

I'm rambling so enough of that.
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 20:21 #26

  • Gary_Miller
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BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
First off, how many of you can shoe a horse for $55.00 and make money (profit) if you are really running a business?
No.

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
How much does it really cost to shoe a horse in this day and age?
Based on recent costs:
Shoes: $10 for a set of four.
Nails: $2.40
Rasp: $2.00
Propane: $2.00
Truck Expense:$16.50 (Based on a round trip of 30 miles, at the current mileage rate of $0.55)
Total cost: $32.90.
And I have yet to figure in a much of other cost, insurance, small buisness tax, ect.

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
How much is cost increased when dealing with lameness?
That would depend on what would need done. My prices increase with the cost of what is needed. For instance one horse I do needs a 3% wedged egg bar shoe, the cost of the shoe I use is about $30.

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
Can you make money trimming for $15.00 to $20.00?
Not if I use the standard mileage rate.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
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"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 23:10 #27

  • Mike Ferrara
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Gary, Why are you figuring 30 miles/horse?
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 23:34 #28

  • George Geist
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Gary_Miller wrote:
George, licensing will not stop so call "under cutting of pricing" and you know it.

People will still charge what they want in order to gain work, and that's a fact that licensing cannot, has not, and never will change in any field of work.
Refer to post 17. I remember Illinois you don't.
Gary_Miller wrote:
Run your own business with the up most ethics, continue to improve yourself, treat every customer with respect, give every job your best effort, and provide good service at a reasonable price.
And how does this prevent other cheaper guys from knocking on the barn door. Around the Philadelphia area we got a truckload of Guatemalens going from farm to farm guaranteeing they'll shoe or trim as many as a place has at a lower price than the cheapest quote. You can certainly do things however you want in your personal business but what can be done about that? You guessed it-nothing.

Gary_Miller wrote:
I call BS on this one. Anyone can get a license to shoe on the track in Idaho by just paying a $50 fee, a $15 back ground check, and a letter from a owner/trainer if its your first time applying. Everyone charges what they want to charge, so under cut pricing can occur.
And I'll see your BS and raise you a double BS. You've never been tested, licensed anywhere or worked at any track. Is something you know nothing about so I suggest you enjoy your blissful ignorance.
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 23:45 #29

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
Am also old enough to remember when Illinois operated under that "system" the guys there were the highest paid in the country.

I'm not sure what year Il licensing ended but I don't think it was too long after it ended that I started. I'll tell you what you had. You had a bunch of jerks that thought they were intitled to a business environment free of competition. Showing up in a barn/area without having been invited by the resident "thinks he owns the place" farrier could get you in a fight...Not that it bothered me too much in those days.

You think licensing insured high quality work? Guess again.
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RE:Under Cut Pricing 24 May 2009 23:50 #30

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:

And how does this prevent other cheaper guys from knocking on the barn door. Around the Philadelphia area we got a truckload of Guatemalens going from farm to farm guaranteeing they'll shoe or trim as many as a place has at a lower price than the cheapest quote. You can certainly do things however you want in your personal business but what can be done about that? You guessed it-nothing.


First off, enforce immigration law. Second, Were these guys so good that you couldn't compete?
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