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TOPIC: Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!!

RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 21:49 #16

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Sesmoidian ligaments play a part in this as well...
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 22 Sep 2008 02:37 #17

Here is some food for thought on tendons and ligaments in the lower limb. According to Dr. Rooney the muscles that the DDFT and SFT are attached to are relatively small. The tricep, bicep and shoulder muscle are larger and pulls the horse forward and the lower muscle group play a lesser role in propulsion. Picture the horse moving using upper muscles and the lower ligaments and tendons more as stabilizing the horses body weight kind of throws a wrench as to what we consider proper breakover and raises the question in my mind on the importance of conditioning, purchase, traction and efficiency. Any thoughts on this?
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 22 Sep 2008 05:17 #18

  • uncle Rico
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Phill, is rasping away distortion of the dorsal wall more invasive than setting a shoe back and bevelling the wall from the bottom? What is the difference? if it is distortion, get rid off it! Is the toe clipped shoe of craigs set where you would have set it? I mean the leading edge, would u have set it further back, or further forward, or in the same place? If it is in the right place why not rasp away the excess wall and get the foot tightened up. I understand that some folks get carried away and rape and pillage the wall too much, I am reffering to removing distortion and returning the foot to equal proportions.... aka "ballance".
15 years ago it was few and far between when I would hear of a front limb with a suspensory injury. But I would see plenty of old broke down hinds with ruptured suspensories, race horses, rodeo horses, a few drafts, and a ton of puruvean pasos. Now days every horse that takes a bad step has a lession in it's suspensory lig in the front limb......It reminds me of the big navicular craze of the 90's when every horse that took a bad step had navicular, as of late I haven't heard a horse around hear diagnosed with navicular in about 5 years give or take. My thoughts are that lamenesses are like fads, I am not saying that it is all a farse but, I think the suspensory is being used as a scape goat more offten than not. On the flip side of that coin mabey it has to do with the way people are shoeing now, back 15 years ago not to many farriers were setting shoes back and thinking about break over, mabey the shoeing trend of today has brought on a front limb suspensory lig epidemic???:eek:
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 22 Sep 2008 11:09 #19

Hey Uncle Rico thanks for taking the time to respond. Good questions and excellent info from years back, that is good stuff. Maybe all that really matters is good shoeing and learning how to get a healthy strong hoof. Afterall that is everyones goal right? A healthy foot that can support the horse, grip the ground and move gracefully with speed. I am beginning to think our understanding of bio mechanics might be the culprit here and also our eagerness to have an answer and fix for anything that comes along. Maybe breakover allows an out of shape and older horses to use smaller muscle groups for a short period of time and the injury to suspensory ligaments is a result of a tendon like structure with a small amount of muscle is now doing a job that it was not meant to do. One thing that stands out to me is how focused we are on the DDFT in the movement of the horse, however if you study bio mechanics the DDFT, SFT and SL play more of a roll in stability and the upper larger muscle groups propels the horse forward. It is like a rock climber griping ledge however using triceps, biceps and shoulder muscles to pull themselves up not there finger tips. The finger tips get a grip however it is not those muscles that pull. If you put pulling strain on the ends of your fingers you can instantly feel the tendons and forearm muscle under strain. I think the foot needs ground surface mass for traction so the limb can pull the body forward useing the upper stronger muscle and tendons. Horses that go lame easily are probably out of shape, over worked, poor conformation, poorly ridden, fatigued, to old. We come along with breakover and make it easy for the lower tendons and ligaments and muscle groups to do more than what it is designed to do. Just a thought I had while laying in bed last night. :D
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 22 Sep 2008 12:04 #20

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Rico
Fantastic post I could not agree more.
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 22 Sep 2008 12:09 #21

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uncle Rico wrote:
Is the toe clipped shoe of craigs set where you would have set it? I mean the leading edge, would u have set it further back, or further forward, or in the same place?

More importantly, where is the back edge of the web ending up. The back of the web helps support p3. Craigs shoes all have a nice wide web in them. If you took an sx8, threw a toe clip on, and place it in the same position as craig's shoes you would probably have some problems down the road. The narrow web of the sx8 would not support p3 as well.That's probably why people have so much easier time setting shoes back. You can take a narrow web shoe and set it back so it still supports p3.
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 22 Sep 2008 12:33 #22

  • Rick Burten
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What about the increased weight of the shoe?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 22 Sep 2008 22:48 #23

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Rick Burten wrote:
What about the increased weight of the shoe?


Are wide web shoes too heavy for a horse? Should all horses be in aluminum or just kept barefoot to keep the weight down? Does a wide web shoe have to be heavy?
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 22 Sep 2008 22:56 #24

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uncle Rico wrote:
But I would see plenty of old broke down hinds with ruptured suspensories, race horses, rodeo horses, a few drafts, and a ton of puruvean pasos.

I would be interesting if we could go back to that time and see how many of those horses, especially the pasos were actually suffering from ESPA/DSLD.
mabey the shoeing trend of today has brought on a front limb suspensory lig epidemic???:eek:

My custom covers horses from several breeds involved in a wide variety of disciplines. I still don't see a lot of suspensory ligament injuries in the front legs, but I do see a lot of DSLD/ESPA in the hind limbs of horses especially Arabians and Arabian X's, Paso's and Saddlebreds. I have seen a few cases in QH's, TB's and Morgans too.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 23 Sep 2008 00:47 #25

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Eric,
I dissagree that the wider web supports the P3, I leave enough vertical depth that when my clip is burned in and my shoe nailed on I still have a good 3/16 of sole clearance. I think that the wider web protects the foot a bit. I like the 3/8x 1 because you can forge a custom section for the individual horse easily. You can make 3/8x1 1/4, 3/8x3/4, 3/8x7/8, 7/8x7/16, 3/4x7/16,1 1/4x5/16, and so on and so on. The best thing about it is that you can take away width and get more thikness. I think that on the bigger horses rigidity of the shoe is a big factor, as well as being able to get the nails coarse enough to not separate the wall from the white line. I have had several big horses come to me with " white line disease" that no one could fix. It was funny how the "white line disease was just in the area of the nail pattern? I punched the nails coarser and cross nailled the hooves and in a few shoeing the wall was solidly attached.

Rick, I am sure that the paso's had dsld because most of them were quite young and hadn't worked much yet. Most of the others where old, rode hard and put up wet types
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 23 Sep 2008 05:37 #26

uncle Rico wrote:
Eric,
I dissagree that the wider web supports the P3, I leave enough vertical depth that when my clip is burned in and my shoe nailed on I still have a good 3/16 of sole clearance. I think that the wider web protects the foot a bit. I like the 3/8x 1 because you can forge a custom section for the individual horse easily. You can make 3/8x1 1/4, 3/8x3/4, 3/8x7/8, 7/8x7/16, 3/4x7/16,1 1/4x5/16, and so on and so on. The best thing about it is that you can take away width and get more thikness. I think that on the bigger horses rigidity of the shoe is a big factor, as well as being able to get the nails coarse enough to not separate the wall from the white line. I have had several big horses come to me with " white line disease" that no one could fix. It was funny how the "white line disease was just in the area of the nail pattern? I punched the nails coarser and cross nailled the hooves and in a few shoeing the wall was solidly attached.

Rick, I am sure that the paso's had dsld because most of them were quite young and hadn't worked much yet. Most of the others where old, rode hard and put up wet types
Uncle Rico , do you think that some sort ,of frog -pressure ,is a factor, in it?
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 23 Sep 2008 10:20 #27

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uncle Rico wrote:
Eric,
I dissagree that the wider web supports the P3,

You must be from a drier climate! :) Think of saddlebreds. How do you think they're able to keep p3 from sinking through the sole. The wide web / toe weight plus the pad support p3. Same thing for short feet. Moisture helps move things along a little quicker though! ;)
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 23 Sep 2008 11:23 #28

Jake Whitman wrote:
Uncle Rico , do you think that some sort ,of frog -pressure ,is a factor, in it?

Dr. Rooney, The Lame Horse The Digit and Foot Pg. 21

"It is often assumed that the frog contacts the ground immediatly, pressing upwards against the digital cushion (so called frog pressure). It is more reasonable, and in fact the case, that the middle phalanx presses the cushion down upon the frog, and the frog touches the ground secondarily, if at all. The frog, normally soft, is poorly adapted for taking the immediate shock of impact."
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 23 Sep 2008 11:24 #29

uncle Rico wrote:
Eric,
I dissagree that the wider web supports the P3, I leave enough vertical depth that when my clip is burned in and my shoe nailed on I still have a good 3/16 of sole clearance. I think that the wider web protects the foot a bit. I like the 3/8x 1 because you can forge a custom section for the individual horse easily. You can make 3/8x1 1/4, 3/8x3/4, 3/8x7/8, 7/8x7/16, 3/4x7/16,1 1/4x5/16, and so on and so on. The best thing about it is that you can take away width and get more thikness. I think that on the bigger horses rigidity of the shoe is a big factor, as well as being able to get the nails coarse enough to not separate the wall from the white line. I have had several big horses come to me with " white line disease" that no one could fix. It was funny how the "white line disease was just in the area of the nail pattern? I punched the nails coarser and cross nailled the hooves and in a few shoeing the wall was solidly attached.

Rick, I am sure that the paso's had dsld because most of them were quite young and hadn't worked much yet. Most of the others where old, rode hard and put up wet types

Good stuff Uncle Rico, thank you.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 23 Sep 2008 11:29 #30

Eric,
If the wider web (3/8x1) is fit flat to the dorsal surface toe clipped and nailed snugly, I would think it forms a right angle jointof sorts. Could the rigidity of the nails, the burned in toe clip and the hard surface area of the shoe reduce the strain on the laminae by 1) redirecting force through the wider web and 2) reducing flexion of any wall lenght that may extend pass the solar junction?
Just a thought?
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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