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TOPIC: Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!!

Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 11:30 #1

  • Dave Whitaker
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That got your attention didn't it?

First,I want to thank Bruce at Horseshoes Plus in Barrington, NH, for putting on a great Clinic/BBQ yesterday. It was an event worthy of wasting one of our waning "Harley" days!

Craig shod a big paint mare that had absolutely beautiful feet when she arrived.(RINGER!!!.....lol). She had a little length to take and I bet Craig's trim wasn't a nickels worth of difference between how most of us on this board would have trimmed her....( If Tom and Patty had done her in a back room and brought her out, I'm guessig the feet would have looked a lot alike). I found it interested that Craig trims his heels first, as do I..... he called it "pushing into the height". In front of clients,I am apt to call it "bringing the heels back", or "setting my heels", as I have found that if you tell them you are going to lower the heels, it tends to cause client convulsions.

Craig made 3/8 X 1,(14 1/2 inches cut), handmades for her fronts and St Croix Xtra Plus ,(size 3's), behind, all toe clipped. Now, I toe clip a lot of my fronts on TWHs and Iceys, but don't remember the last time I toe clipped a hind. I left not knowing why I don't do that........ on these feet, I wouldn't have set a shoe any differently than Craig did..(did he "set them back"?...yep, back from where they would have been on the pre-trimmed foot)... absolutely no reason to set the shoe off the toe on these correctly trimmed, properly proportioned, distortion free feet. Perhaps, even, the toe clips are helping our nails with LESS "trauma" potential to the feet? (One clip = half as "invasive" as two???). Are they "protecting" the toe better? Makes you go hmmmmmmmm????

Anyway, I don't care who you are, how you shoe, ( I have those very St Croix shoes, 3/8X1/2 stock, NB, Eventers, Sigafoo's, etc. in my truck), man, you can always come away with something when you expose yourself to the people that take the time to share their experiances with you.

Thanks again, Craig and Bruce..... I had a great day.

Dave


"Everything is for sale......some are just harder to buy than others......"
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 15:03 #2

Hi Dave, have to agree it definitely made me think. Craig said over and over again "toe clips or no clips" to a crowd that uses side clips on a daily basis. What got me was nobody challenged him on this. I decided to keep my mouth shut for once and see if anyone else has an opinion. :rolleyes:

Craigs demo proves how important the trim and hoof prep is. His trimming of the heels and back half of the foot is spot on in my opinion and the same thing I do. His trim of the toe leaves a lot of protection over the coffin bone, no arguments from me on how he trims. Only cleaned up the loose ends on the frog and he was not invasive at all anywhere on the bottom of the foot. No argument from me on how he trims. He also locates the center of the foot and brings the foot back to good balance. Medial/lateral balance and dorsal palmer balance with a lot of good protection.

Craig feels side clips inhibit movement in the front half of hoof capsule and pinches the toe. This is one of the reasons why he likes toe clips. I thought the front half of the foot does not move and I have never had a problem with them. I do not agree with his comment on side clips at all. I quess it depends on how one fits them, I like my method a lot. :)

The reason many of us use side clips is to help keep shoes on and side clips allows us to set shoes back and bevel from underneath without dressing the dorsal wall too much. From what I am seeing so far in Craig's finish to me it is too invasive on the dorsal aspect of the hoof capsule when he burns the clip in and dresses the toe to get the shoe back. JMHO.

Craig also does not like setting shoes back because it makes the toe of the shoe too broad. His theory on breakover is the leading edge of the shoe is the breakover point and we have to ask if the horse needs purchase or breakover at that point. Another point he made on breakover is the lateral aspect of the toe, he has observed horses on treadmills and the hoof also breakover laterally, does a broad toe create leverage on the lateral toe aspect? Maybe they need purchase lateraly? :)

He asked us does the horse need purchase in the toe or breakover, very quite crowed after that question was asked. One farrier said both and a couple said it depends. If we set shoes back then the lateral aspect of the toe is broadened and we encourage broadening of the toe corners in the hoof capsule itself and loose purchase on a setback shoe.

Craig's trims and preps the foot to the shape of the coffin bone using a contour gage placed just below the hair line to find the shape of the coffin bone, anything deviating from this shape at the bottom of the foot is distortion and leverage on the front half of the foot. He locates the bridge, COA and trims for symmetry. I trim the same way, remove distortion and when I need to set shoe back for breakover and it makes the toe too broad then I will hammer a roll in the toe to second nail hole and also hit it with a grinder to reduce lateral leverage on the toe.

In my opinion fitting toe clips requires too much removal of horn in the toe and I think it is better to leave the integrity of the of the toe there and bevel from underneath. Shoes can be set back and done in a manner that does not increase leverage on the lateral aspect of the toe and still maintain the integrity of the hoof capsule. Some feet are so distorted that after the shoe is set back a lot of toe is past the shoe, some of that horn can be dressed off and then beveled from underneath. In my experience it is t impossible to get that shoe far enough back using toe clips without over dressing the toe. So it depends on the foot you have in front of you. I would say most feet cannot be fit properly with a toe clip.

Don't get me wrong Craigs trim and shoe fit and skills are excellent, however the horses he has done here have thick hoof walls and big feet, heels are not underrun and the toe is not too distorted, nice feet.

His question to all of us about purchase and breakover is a great question. What is breakover? Where should it be?

Definitely good things to think about and discuss. It all depends on the horses conformation, what the horse does, environment. If what your doing is working why change it? If it is not working then change it and get all the tools you can to give you more options and skills.

Another comment Craig made about the trade worth considering is market and horse owner driven. The market and horse owner does not drive my practice. I have no problem with my clients letting me do what I think the horse needs. I can see his point though, the farrier market is huge and horse owners continue to get inundated with all kinds of theories and new products. The solution to this if it is a problem is continued education, experience and take charge of your profession and business.

Excellent clinic and very educational. I think he got a lot of people thinking.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 15:46 #3

  • calshoer
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Craig feels side clips inhibit movement in the front half of hoof capsule and pinches the toe.
You can not inhibit what is not designed to move in the first place. If one understands fuinctional anatomy. expansion the hoof capsule is supposed to occur in the caudal portion only, because the anterior portion is attached to the coffin bone by the laminae. Hoofcare pratitioners who try to force expansion in the entire hoof from the toe back will cause bruised laminae. Thinking that the entire bottom of the foot expands like a "cone" is a flawed concept.
This is one of the reasons why he likes toe clips.
He is incorrect that clips are "invasive", on the side or not.
Most people like toe clips better simply because they are easier to fit than a pair of side clips.
I thought the front half of the foot does not move and I have never had a problem with them. I do not agree with his comment on side clips at all.
I agree with you.
I quess it depends on how one fits them,
The only way a side clip would be " invasive" or "pinch" is if one pounded them into the wall , causing a bruise.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 15:47 #4

Phil,
I think "Breakover" on a front foot is when the toe stops exerting force into the ground and is folded upwards by the combined actions of the SL, DFT and SFT..
Hind feet do not breakover, they unload as the point of hock passes over the toe.
JMO
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 16:02 #5

  • calshoer
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Did anyone get pictures?
Craig's trims and preps the foot to the shape of the coffin bone using a contour gage placed just below the hair line to find the shape of the coffin bone, anything deviating from this shape at the bottom of the foot is distortion and leverage on the front half of the foot.
That is true,when discussing capsule distortion BUT shaping a a shoe to that form without also adressing the ROLL that is in the toe of the bone on its solar surface is failing to address the breakover needs of the foot. We should not be shoeing to the coronary band or hoofwall outer shape. We should be shoeing the GROUND surface of the foot.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 16:13 #6

Jason Maki wrote:
Phil,
I think "Breakover" on a front foot is when the toe stops exerting force into the ground and is folded upwards by the combined actions of the SL, DFT and SFT..
Hind feet do not breakover, they unload as the point of hock passes over the toe.
JMO
Jason

I agree with that except for the role of the SL, I assume the acronym stands for Suspensory Ligament. This ligament does not play a roll in propulsion the purpose is weight bearing both lower and upper ligament. You forgot the extensor tendon. :)

The only suspensory injuries I have seen are in the front the upper ligament. Anyone ever experience suspensory injuries in the hind? Most of the injuries on the hind that I have seen are propulsion related not weight bearing related, hocks, stifle, back, hips. Not too many related to concussion and weight bearing. Except when the front end is so lame the horse transfers the weight to the hind end, like foundered horses and it seems to crash very fast because they are not built to support a lot of weight on the hind. So many variables and responses to injury it can be difficult to determine which came first. :confused:
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 16:18 #7

  • Mike Ferrara
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calshoer wrote:
You can not inhibit what is not designed to move in the first place. If one understands fuinctional anatomy. expansion the hoof capsule is supposed to occur in the caudal portion only, because the anterior portion is attached to the coffin bone by the laminae.

"Designed to" ? "supposed to" ? These are terms we might use in reference to an object designed by people when we have design specifications and drawings.

Is P3 rigid? In relation to what? Is the laminae rigid? In relation to what? Is the wall rigid? In relation to what?m Is the result no flexion at all?

You start out talking like an engineer but you don't finish that way. the caudal portion of the foot may flex more than the dorsal but that doesn't mean that the dorsal doesn't flex at all...if it didn't, it might shatter like glass the first time it hit the ground.


Thinking that the entire bottom of the foot expands like a "cone" is a flawed concept.

What do you mean by "expands like a "cone" "? A cone and all sorts of conic setions are well defined mathematically. What are you really trying to say? As is, you haven't said anything.
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 16:20 #8

  • Mike Ferrara
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calshoer wrote:
Did anyone get pictures? That is true,when discussing capsule distortion BUT shaping a a shoe to that form without also adressing the ROLL that is in the toe of the bone on its solar surface is failing to address the breakover needs of the foot. We should not be shoeing to the coronary band or hoofwall outer shape. We should be shoeing the GROUND surface of the foot.

Who says so?
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 16:50 #9

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calshoer wrote:
Most people like toe clips better simply because they are easier to fit than a pair of side clips.

That's crazy talk!
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 16:52 #10

calshoer wrote:
I agree with you. The only way a side clip would be " invasive" or "pinch" is if one pounded them into the wall , causing a bruise.

I agree with that and have experienced it for myself, bad mistake. I put a slight radius in the clip like the foot and angle them in close to the angle of the hoof wall and after burning in the base of the clip only need to slightly tap them towards the hoof wall, I do not burn the entire clip into the hoof wall. No pinching or clamping effect. I have never had a problem with bruising or causing distortion in the hoof capsule doing it this way and it is not too invasive also allows for a good fit.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 16:59 #11

calshoer wrote:
Most people like toe clips better simply because they are easier to fit than a pair of side clips.

I have very little experience fitting toe clips and the little I have it is very difficult to get them burned in and get a good shape in the shoe. Craig makes is look easy, but trust me it is very difficult. At least I think it is and find it much easier to fit side clips.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 19:57 #12

Phil,
what ligament resists the down force of the horses mass and springs the fetlock upwards until the dft can be engaged?
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 21:19 #13

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OOOh OOOh , pick me, pick me??? Would that be the suspensory ligament???:D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 21:29 #14

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Phil Armitage wrote:
I agree with that except for the role of the SL, I assume the acronym stands for Suspensory Ligament. This ligament does not play a roll in propulsion the purpose is weight bearing both lower and upper ligament. You forgot the extensor tendon. :)

The only suspensory injuries I have seen are in the front the upper ligament. Anyone ever experience suspensory injuries in the hind? Most of the injuries on the hind that I have seen are propulsion related not weight bearing related, hocks, stifle, back, hips. Not too many related to concussion and weight bearing. Except when the front end is so lame the horse transfers the weight to the hind end, like foundered horses and it seems to crash very fast because they are not built to support a lot of weight on the hind. So many variables and responses to injury it can be difficult to determine which came first. :confused:


Phil, may not be an injury, but what about DSLD in the hind end? More so maybe in Paso's than others, but still a problem with the suspensory in the hind end.
Ben Sturman
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RE:Craig Trnka Sets Shoes Back In Nh!!!!! 21 Sep 2008 21:44 #15

Jason Maki wrote:
Phil,
what ligament resists the down force of the horses mass and springs the fetlock upwards until the dft can be engaged?
Jason

I do not know how to answer your question. My understanding of what holds the mass of the horse up and prevents the fetlock from rotating is the stay apparatus which is made up of the suspensory ligament, deep digital and superficial tendons and their check ligaments. The suspensory ligament is the largest of the three. As for which ligament springs the fetlock upward until the dft can be engaged I do not know?
Phil Armitage, CF
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