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TOPIC: Fees

RE:Fees 11 Aug 2005 20:07 #16

  • solidrockshoer
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Wayne, you might want to check the archives at the AFJ. In the past they have listed the prices in the differant area's of the U.S. The prices in the North East and of course California are way higher than the rest of the country. Unfortunately ,here in the southwest due to the fact we have more horses per capita (not sure if that word is spelled right?) the prices are lower that the other area's. We on the other hand do work year around due to the climate. Not much if any snow to shut down riders and farriers. We compete almost year round with our horses. The slow or down time is late Nov-Jan for the holidays. But the shoeing still goes on as people still ride in the good weather. Best, Gary
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RE:Fees 11 Aug 2005 22:20 #17

  • Rick Burten
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wwhite1973 wrote:
> I am sorry if I ruffled anyone's feathers over my post, but I thought it would interesting to see what other farriers were charging in other parts of the country. Wayne

Wayne,

You didn't ruffle any feathers. I was just commenting on something I found interesting.

Sure the government knows what we all make(at least they think they do, right? :o ;) ) I just hate having us give them such valuable information all in one place at one time. It raises us up higher on their radar screen.

As for my position on Licensing/registration, let me say this. When the State of Illinois required licensing and registration, I was licensed and registered with the state. I can't even remember what it cost per year to do so. No one ever asked me to show my license though I was required to keep it posted, visably, in my truck. Did being licensed or now, not being licensed affect my business in anyway? I honestly can't answer that. It never seemed to. There were no requirements for insurance coverage: there was no increase in the number of lawsuits filed against me due to an injury to the horse(zero to be precise); at the time, there was little insurance coverage available anyway; though we were I suppose, "policed by bureaucrats" I never saw any effect of that; the curriculum of the horseshoeing schools in Illinois was not, to my knowledge, affected; and the horseowning public still got to choose who they wanted to provide hoofcare services to their horses.

The only thing that licensing did was to take money from my pocket to go toward licensing fees. And yes, it did affect my fees, but incrementally so.
I always viewed the licensing fee as a normal cost of doing business and planned accordingly.

For many years now, the State of Illinois has not had the licensing/registration requirement. Are things any different for me?
Well, expenses have gone up but so have my fees. I try to work smarter not harder. The government is still or perhaps even more obtrusive in my life
and I think this whole issue truely is a tempest in a teapot. The pot has, for the time being, boiled over, but in time, will return to simmer. Whether we steep the tea ourselves and have the opportunity to enjoy the flavor or whether we just get to drink a bitter tea brewed by others remains to be seen. Personally, I think that by the time any action is taken on the issue, I will be long retired. And, like General MacArthur, I may not have died, but I will have faded away, leaving the stage to the new performers. I hope they have well learned the script.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Fees 11 Aug 2005 22:34 #18

  • Jaye Perry
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Phil Armitage wrote:
I already think the information has been known for a long time, don't we all file tax returns. ...What will shoot farriers in the foot is the bragging the God like farriers do, you know the 200.00 just for front shoes.
.......


What's wrong with $200 for front shoes? :confused:
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RE:Fees 12 Aug 2005 01:24 #19

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edited********
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RE:Fees 12 Aug 2005 01:45 #20

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Jaye Perry wrote:
What's wrong with $200 for front shoes? :confused:

Not a damn thing! Its just that discussing it where it becomes information for all, may well pique the interest of unwanted lurkers.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Fees 12 Aug 2005 01:52 #21

When you think about where our expences are heading it not crazy at all. :(
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RE:Fees 12 Aug 2005 02:21 #22

  • wwhite1973
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Thanks Gary for the info, I will check it out. In some areas of Washington county in Missouri there are still some shoeing for $35 and trimming for $15. Yes they are young but I still don't know how they do it.
Thank you also Rick. I found your post interesting. I was under the assumption that Illinois still had a licensing requirement. As far as the schools, I think the government would be more concerned about collecting licensing fees than trying to police schools. They probably wouldn't care what was taught at the schools as long as they kept cranking new farriers out that they could collect fees from. As far as that goes they probably wouldn't care how competent a farrier was just as long as they can get their money. The thing that pains me most is the division that this whole issue seems to be creating in the farrier industry. I am like you, I will probably be retired, living on horse meat (don't get excited horse lovers I am just kidding, I prefer coon and possum) before anything really comes from this. Only time will tell and we can only hope and pray something good comes from this for the brotherhood of farriers.
Wayne
AFA Member #10310 IRB Thoroughbred Licensed Blacksmith
Please! Don't steal. The government doesn't like the competition!
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RE:Fees 12 Aug 2005 13:43 #23

Jaye Perry wrote:
What's wrong with $200 for front shoes? :confused:

Nothing if that is the time and material that you have put into it. If all you did is trim and slap on a pair of plaine shoes then there is allot wrong with it.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Fees 12 Aug 2005 14:20 #24

  • Mike Ferrara
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Nothing if that is the time and material that you have put into it. If all you did is trim and slap on a pair of plaine shoes then there is allot wrong with it.

Maybe time and material cost effects the minimum you can charge but not the maximum. If you can slap on 2 keg shoes for $200 and the client is satisfied with the bang they got for the buck, all is well, though $300 would be better. It's supply demand, reputation, salesmanship as well as the cost to actually do it. If one guy can only get $10/hour for his time how does that mean that another can't get $200?

An example I like is knives. You can go to wallmart and get a high quality and very useable blade for $20. Don Fogg sells knives that go for thousands. Other custom makers sell great blades for a fraction of that but their name isn't Don Fogg and some buyers want Don Fogg's mark on their blade and are willing to pay for it. I'll bet Don can make a blade way faster than I can but I'll still get far less for mine.

If a horse owner wants Mike Ferrara to shoe their horse but Mike has more horses than he wants and has raised his price to $100/foot and is getting it then that's what that client will pay. ok wishful thinking right now but some guys do have that kind of business and It has nothing to do with the cost of materials.
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RE:Fees 12 Aug 2005 14:29 #25

Well Phil, you'ld be surprised.

If you calculate all you should, like full health coverage ánd an insurance that pays you when you can't shoe horses because your back is sore, and a decent income when you have to quit shoeing which normally would be around what? 50? $200.00 may not even be enough for 2 front shoes.

And if you compare the toll the work takes (there's not much like it guys) on you 50 may be even a little too old to quit ánd be able to go ride a horse every now and then, or play golf. Do you think you'll have a nice swing when you're 50 and worked 30 years as a shoer?

What does a vet make in the time we shoe a horse? Is our experience worth less? Because of what? A diploma? Shoot I have a University degree, do I get to charge as much as a vet now?

I think we always charge too little. But we have to simply because if we charge too much there will be some ****** young kid who will do the work for half the price. And usually the owners don't care because they can't tell the difference anyway. As long as the shoes are still on after 6 weeks they're happy. Shoot even vets usually can't tell good shoeing from bad shoeing!


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Fees 12 Aug 2005 21:40 #26

  • solidrockshoer
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Hey Ronald, I'm 52, been shoeing going on 28yrs and I can still swing a mean golf club! The problem is where the ball lands? As to the prices issue, with gas going out of sight right as we type, who knows how much we have to go up on prices. I agree that some guys gouge people, just last week a friend of mind bragged about charging $500.00 for heartbars all around and he applied them WITHOUT x-rays! I don't believe there is anyway he did a $500.00 job! Especially, since I asked him how the follow up was going and he said what follow up? And I don't think a fellow farrier who shoes cold should charge what another does hot, but that's my own opinion. Best, Gary
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RE:Fees 12 Aug 2005 22:18 #27

  • Gary_Miller
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Gary Hill wrote:
And I don't think a fellow farrier who shoes cold should charge what another does hot, but that's my own opinion. Best, Gary
It does not matter if the shoe was shaped cold or hot, or if it was fit hot or not.

If the job is the same quality why not get the same price?

Gary
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RE:Fees 12 Aug 2005 23:37 #28

Honestly?
It is not possible to attend to the nuances and subtleties if proper shoe fit cold. Seat a shoe, forge a real heel. sweeten the medial branch, get the radius correct, not have pinches and kinks exerting pressure aginst the foot, stretch the lateral branch for proper coverage: all of these things are relevant to a proper, complete job. I could not do a satisfactory job without a forge. Would you tim a horse with a dull knife and a pair of pulloffs? Obviously not, those are not appropriate tools. Would I shoe a horse without a forge? See the above statement for the answer! :eek: :D
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:Fees 13 Aug 2005 00:08 #29

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RE:Fees 13 Aug 2005 00:10 #30

Amen Jason!!!!! There is nothing wrong with getting as much as you can get price wise. If you feel that way, then you're just ripping yourself off. My mentor has spent 30 years shoeing horses, CJF, and doesn't charge as much as I do. I told him what my prices were and he laughed, told me I wouldn't last six months, and I'd have to lower my prices. That was last October, and I'm raising them up again this October, I've got more work than I care to do, and the phone still rings. When you're too busy, you're too cheap. If you're charging $1000 to shoe a horse, and you're working on 6 or 8 a day, guess what, it's time to raise your prices. It took me awhile to figure it out, but now that I have, no one is going to tell me that I need to lower my prices, if you want to be mad, go ahead, but you should be mad at yourself for selling yourself short.
jmo
Dave
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