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TOPIC: Have to bring it up again

RE:Have to bring it up again 30 Jul 2005 17:28 #61

  • matryoshka
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I agree with Mike. Then again, I should simply stop posting, but I'm irresistably drawn to trying to get the last word. :D

Jason, I really wasn't calling Rick's farrier credientials into question. I stated that I didn't know what his credentials are, but that shows my ignorance, not his. I also think he forgets what it feels like to be a fledgeling farrier (trimmer, in my case) who is simply trying to learn from the experts. He's quick to slap people down, which is discouraging to us newbies. If this forum is just for experts to pat each other on the back, then I've come to the wrong site for getting more info. Same goes if it is a battlefield where anything goes as long as "the good guys" win. I wasn't aware I'd entered a war zone. I've seen the occasional duel among equals and learned a lot from reading them. I only take exception when a person with above-average verbal skills uses education/facility with words to make another feel ******. As stated by others before, I can simply choose not to read it or stop visiting the site. That kind of warfare doesn't make the participants look good. I believe the argument with JPT occurred on the horse-owners section of the web site, which is even worse.

I have engaged in this particular argument partly because I was trying to assess whether Rick is deliberately malicious at times, whether he simply indulges his sense of humor regardless of how readers feel about it, or whether he didn't realize he even sounded malicious. I've learned a lot from his responses. Those of you who know him on a personal basis already know his motivations, whereas I do not.

From what I can see, Rick is very intelligent, not just clever. He often uses sarcasm, even though it is tough for those who don't know him to tell whether he's stating what he thinks is the truth or indulging in sarcasm. He engages in verbal slight-of-hand (remember his frequent references to P.T Barnum's statement about suckers). This an acceptable tactic in debate, but a waste of paper in logic. He prefers to participate when he can control the turf and enjoys having an audience--another trait he shares with P.T Barnum, who wrote his own obituary.

I think the only thing I really questioned here were his manners. He doesn't think his manners need adjustment or correction, so there is no point in continuing the topic in that direction. I also showed poor manners when I compared him to a boar. I'm sorry I did that. However, no harm done, since Rick appeared to enjoy the comparison. I won't point out the less glamorous aspects of such a comparison, since that would again be bad manners on my part.

I was trying to figure out whether Rick is truly a multiple. If he is, then it is irresponsible for him to joke about it here, because it could trigger an altered state in a fellow multiple who is simply trying to learn more about hoof care. If he isn't, then the frequent references are more understandable. Rick is quite adept at defying classification, so I haven't gotten this one figured yet. Sigh.

I've learned a lot about Rick from this thread, and now I can get the proper tone if I choose to read any of his other posts. I simply wasn't sure how to take him before. I'm too obtuse to figure out what else he thinks I should have learned from his posts.

I do think it is arrogant to assume that when somebody doesn't get one's intended meaning, it is the fault of the reader. If I shared this attitude I'd have gotten fired from my first technical writing job. If the reader doesn't get the meaning (assuming the writer actually wants to be understood), then it is im***bent upon the writer to clarify his/her statements. This is what professional writers do if they want to receive a paycheck, but amateurs (and poets) don't have to hold themselves to the same standards.

I've learned as much about Rick as I needed to understand his posts better. Thanks for indulging me. If anybody sees me as a goody-two-shoes, sappy, Miss Sunshine, then you've gotten the correct impression. If you see me as a nasty b****, then I guess you must be right, too. I usually try to help people feel better about themselves (except deliberately nasty individuals), regardless of whether it is saying "hello" with a pleasant expression or giving a struggling mom a sympathetic grin. I don't subscribe to P.T. Barnum's attitude toward others.

As for trimming horses' hooves, so far I have always left the job thinking how lucky I am to be able to do it. On Monday I worked in the sun in 90+ heat, got stomped, kicked, and bruised, and I still left smiling. No matter how tough it is under a horse, it's easier work than being an at-home mommy. We'll see if I'm still smiling when it is cold in the winter. Brrrr! :eek:

Pam
Crusader Rabbit Rides Again!
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RE:Have to bring it up again 31 Jul 2005 03:36 #62

  • Rick Burten
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matryoshka wrote:
>I agree with Mike. Then again, I should simply stop posting, but I'm irresistably drawn to trying to get the last word.

I know the feeling!

* I also think he forgets what it feels like to be a fledgeling farrier (trimmer, in my case) who is simply trying to learn from the experts.

I have not forgotten that feeling at all. And, I regularly try to help some of those fledglings leave the nest and fly on their own.

* He's quick to slap people down, which is discouraging to us newbies.

It shouldn't be. Especially if the subject is horses and/or hoofcare.

*If this forum is just for experts to pat each other on the back, then I've come to the wrong site for getting more info. Same goes if it is a battlefield where anything goes as long as "the good guys" win. I wasn't aware I'd entered a war zone.

These little wars as you call them, come around every so often. Especially when feelings, egos or persuasion points get involved or bruised, and the subject is a "hot topic".

* I've seen the occasional duel among equals and learned a lot from reading them. I only take exception when a person with above-average verbal skills uses education/facility with words to make another feel ******.

Words, regardless of their author should never make anyone feel ******. If the words are unknown to the reader, then he, she, neuter gender, has the same opportunity as for instance I do, and that is to go and look them up in a dictionary or thesaraus or book of synonyms, antonyms or whatever and then to add those words to their vocabulary and regular use. IMNTBCHO, people feel ****** because, for what ever reason, on a given topic or issue, they are ******. Recognizing that fact and choosing to do something about it, elevates them out of the squirming mass of ******ity. And as I opined before, if you bring a knife to a gun fight, you should not be suprised at the outcome.

*As stated by others before, I can simply choose not to read it or stop visiting the site.

You have indicated that intellectually you are not ready or willing to do that. Good for you! Think of the entertainment(black (not the racial variety in case any misunderstood my inference)or otherwise) you would miss. :(

*That kind of warfare doesn't make the participants look good.

Why would one be concerned about looking good?

*I believe the argument with JPT occurred on the horse-owners section of the web site, which is even worse.

IIRC, that discussion happened on the Farriers helping Farriers part of the forums. Who would you say it was worse for? and why?

*I have engaged in this particular argument partly because I was trying to assess whether Rick is deliberately malicious at times, whether he simply indulges his sense of humor regardless of how readers feel about it, or whether he didn't realize he even sounded malicious.

Yes. Yes. No(or interpreted differently, Yes).

*From what I can see, Rick is very intelligent, not just clever. He often uses sarcasm, even though it is tough for those who don't know him to tell whether he's stating what he thinks is the truth or indulging in sarcasm.

often, both.

*He engages in verbal slight-of-hand (remember his frequent references to P.T Barnum's statement about suckers). This an acceptable tactic in debate, but a waste of paper in logic. He prefers to participate when he can control the turf and enjoys having an audience--

I'm not sure how I can or do control the turf. As for having an audience, who wants to appear in front of an empty theatre? And I participate regardless of the numbers in attendance, or the subject at hand. As it pleases me

*another trait he shares with P.T Barnum, who wrote his own obituary.

I didn't know that! Thanks for that tidbit. It is especially interesting because I have not only written my own obituary, but my funeral and (non)grave service. I suppose that we could consider this instance one of ignorance and/or ******ity?

*I think the only thing I really questioned here were his manners. He doesn't think his manners need adjustment or correction, so there is no point in continuing the topic in that direction. I also showed poor manners when I compared him to a boar. I'm sorry I did that.

Don't be.

*However, no harm done, since Rick appeared to enjoy the comparison.

When life throws me a lemon, I try to make lemonade.

* I won't point out the less glamorous aspects of such a comparison, since that would again be bad manners on my part.

Though the subtlty of this alleged non comparison may be lost on some, it is not lost on me. Congratulations! You managed to exhibit what some might consider bad manners while still maintaining the moral high ground.

*I was trying to figure out whether Rick is truly a multiple.

So is Rick(and the gang). Or perhaps we have all melded and are now just facets of the one. :eek:

*If he is, then it is irresponsible for him to joke about it here, because it could trigger an altered state in a fellow multiple who is simply trying to learn more about hoof care. If he isn't, then the frequent references are more understandable. Rick is quite adept at defying classification, so I haven't gotten this one figured yet. Sigh.

Want me to come over and lie on your couch for a while doctor?

*I do think it is arrogant to assume that when somebody doesn't get one's intended meaning, it is the fault of the reader. If I shared this attitude I'd have gotten fired from my first technical writing job. If the reader doesn't get the meaning (assuming the writer actually wants to be understood), then it is imc*ubent upon the writer to clarify his/her statements.

Quote me the chapter and verse and I will try to clarify for you.

*This is what professional writers do if they want to receive a paycheck, but amateurs (and poets) don't have to hold themselves to the same standards.

As a writer, I am far from being a professional . And while I have been known to pen some verse (blank, iambic pentameter, haiku, etc). I' not sure if that qualifies me to be called a poet. Perhaps you could help with this matter? Please note that some of my (alleged) poetry has been published, if that helps you with your classification efforts.

*I've learned as much about Rick as I needed to understand his posts better. Thanks for indulging me. If anybody sees me as a goody-two-shoes, sappy, Miss Sunshine, then you've gotten the correct impression. If you see me as a nasty b****, then I guess you must be right, too. I usually try to help people feel better about themselves (except deliberately nasty individuals), regardless of whether it is saying "hello" with a pleasant expression or giving a struggling mom a sympathetic grin. I don't subscribe to P.T. Barnum's attitude toward others.

As the Beatles intoned: "Live a little,be a gypsy , get around, get your feet back on the ground, live a little, get around" Or something quite similar.

*As for trimming horses' hooves, so far I have always left the job thinking how lucky I am to be able to do it. On Monday I worked in the sun in 90+ heat, got stomped, kicked, and bruised, and I still left smiling.

IMNTBCHO, when you have been at this work for a longer period of time, your attitude and working parameters will change. No one should be happy to get stomped, kicked or bruised. And working in the sun in 90+ heat, is a luxury I gave up (well at least when it is 95+, either heat or heat index)many years ago.

*No matter how tough it is under a horse, it's easier work than being an at-home mommy. We'll see if I'm still smiling when it is cold in the winter. Brrrr! :eek:

Not being correctly equipped(anatomically speaking) to be a mommy, let alone a stay at home mommy, I have no way to make the comparison that Pam has made. So, until I check with other similar sources, I will take her word for it. :o

*Pam

Rick
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In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Have to bring it up again 31 Jul 2005 04:40 #63

Not one to let an, um *point* go by, I must interject a tidbit. I saw an episode of Marty Stoufers "Wild America" many years ago on the subject of wild boars. I was only in the sixth grade, and being a prepubescent boy a factoid stuck in my head(figurativley speaking): the vagueley, thus not vulgarly, alluded to part of the boars anatomy can be 18 inches long and CORKSCEWED...
Jason
PS- If I misunderstood the allusion, please disregard this, unless it comes up in Trivial Pursuit. Although of something that long and twisty were chasing me, the pusuit would be far from trivial! :D
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:Have to bring it up again 31 Jul 2005 11:43 #64

  • Mike Ferrara
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What is a moderators job on this board?

I've been a mod on boards and we were expected to help keep threads on topic. I guss the owner of this site might have something different in mind.
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RE:Have to bring it up again 31 Jul 2005 13:35 #65

Mike, here is a couple of recent things, that I think goes along with what you originaly posted.

Got a call from a customer who I have not heard from in a long time, so long that I thought she changed farriers. She called to say her horses needed to be trimmed. I am assumeing they have not been trimmed for a awhile. This goes back to educateing horse owners, I plan on explaining the importance of staying on a regular schedule when I go there next week.

I was talking to the owner of a big barn I do about certification and licensing farriers. His comments was that it does not matter to him if farriers are licensed or certified, it will always be up to the owner who they use as a farrier.

P.S. I do not mind the arguments and discussions that tend to take a different turn, it is still good stuff. Maybe when this happens, a new thread should be started so the original discussion does not get lost.
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:Have to bring it up again 31 Jul 2005 15:03 #66

  • Mike Ferrara
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Mike, here is a couple of recent things, that I think goes along with what you originaly posted.

Got a call from a customer who I have not heard from in a long time, so long that I thought she changed farriers. She called to say her horses needed to be trimmed. I am assumeing they have not been trimmed for a awhile. This goes back to educateing horse owners, I plan on explaining the importance of staying on a regular schedule when I go there next week.

I was talking to the owner of a big barn I do about certification and licensing farriers. His comments was that it does not matter to him if farriers are licensed or certified, it will always be up to the owner who they use as a farrier.

P.S. I do not mind the arguments and discussions that tend to take a different turn, it is still good stuff. Maybe when this happens, a new thread should be started so the original discussion does not get lost.

I've seen more feet this year that would make great evidence on some barefooters site than I ever have before. Maybe it's because I'm starting over again and many of these people have been without a farrier for a while ( for one reason or another) but that's not true for all of them. Some just let them go until they can't walk any more. I can't fix them when they do that and if you looked at these feet you'd no doubt think that I can't trim a foot. LOL. License me if you want but the feet that are done twice a year whether they need it or not will still look the same.

Sometimes a little drift in topic is ok because one subject can naturally lead to another and all can be useful. What we have here though is some kind of bizzar contest to see who can make the slickest use of words to say nothing and act like the bigger jerk. On most moderated forums the mods job is to limit such goings on or at least remove them from the board so members don't have to be bothered with sifting through all the polution to find the real discussion. In this case, it's the "mod" who is the key participant. Rick may be good at word games and maybe he's even a great farrier but he is useless as a forum moderator, IMO. The original topic or anything even related has been all but lost on his own showboating.

Now, I've no doubt left some openings in this post for some one to come in and play more word games and yall have at it and enjoy.
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RE:Have to bring it up again 31 Jul 2005 17:22 #67

I agree with you Mike, I was a part of it and just as quilty and wondering why nobody had blown the whistle and said everyone out of the pool. I have seen the whistle blown in the past, must be a good reason for letting this one go. I figured when I was sarcastic with Rick the whistle would have sounded very loudly. :)

Your original point is very valid. I think it would be a great idea for the AFA to conduct a survey with horse owners to gain a better understanding of what thier needs are. I am seeing more and more horse owners wanting to learn more than ever before, but there is so much information available that it is confuseing. I can see where horse owners might think it is perfectly okay to let there horse go if there not being used or not realise how important hoofcare is. Farriers can play a very important role in educateing horse owners.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Have to bring it up again 31 Jul 2005 18:34 #68

  • Mike Ferrara
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Phil Armitage wrote:
I agree with you Mike, I was a part of it and just as quilty and wondering why nobody had blown the whistle and said everyone out of the pool. I have seen the whistle blown in the past, must be a good reason for letting this one go. I figured when I was sarcastic with Rick the whistle would have sounded very loudly. :)

Well, There are probably very few of us that can claim perfect conduct all the time. It's a privately owned board and the management can handle it how they want. I voiced my opinion about it and I'll leave it at that

Your original point is very valid. I think it would be a great idea for the AFA to conduct a survey with horse owners to gain a better understanding of what thier needs are. I am seeing more and more horse owners wanting to learn more than ever before, but there is so much information available that it is confuseing. I can see where horse owners might think it is perfectly okay to let there horse go if there not being used or not realise how important hoofcare is. Farriers can play a very important role in educateing horse owners.

I plead guilty to not being up to speed on every aspect of the AFA. When I started shoeing I was in my early 20's, busy making money and having a good time and couldn't have cared less. When other farriers urged me to join, I looked into it but couldn't see any reason to send them money. As a part time farrier I also wasn't very interested. Now that I've come back to the trade (hopefully full time) I did so with the intention of correcting what I saw as mistakes I made the first time around so I joined.

I think we can agree that the AFA should work toward the common interests of its members. What I'm not sure of is (and I'm just thnking in writting here) what percentage of the members are farriers and how many are horse owners or other non-farrier interested parties. I'm fairly certain that none of the members are horses, LOL but might there be some conflicts of interest here? Personally, I'm interested in affordable insurance and other things that make my life as a farrier and the life of my family better. I'm interested in educational oportunities (not requirements but oportunities). I am interested in helping horse owners and horses but, in general, I want to get paid for that. If I can be of some service to others through an association, great, but lets face it I joined in the hope that it would somehow enhance my ability to make a living and that's gotten rather difficult just lately. When I'm hungry I don't have much interest in investing money to protect a horse from the owner or the owner from a, not so good, farrier. I'm certainly not interested in paying some one to create additional expenses and hoops for me to jump through before I can shoe my first horse of the day. Sound selfish? this is the work I do and not some crusade. If I didn't need the money I'd probably be in north Florida or the Caribbean someplace dressed in dive gear right about now. In 15 years of corporate life one of the many things I missed about being a full time farrier was the independance. I think other farriers feel the same way which probably explains why so many are not members of any association. Dispite the top end earning potential this is not an easy way to make a living and it's no way to get rich (unless you start young and invest wisely). I started young, got married and ended up broke and VERY tired. LOL. I want to see a farrier association talk about what it's going to do for farriers not horses, horse owners or how some are going to achieve the status or recognition they some how feel they have comming. That respect, recognition or whatever you want to call it is earned by the individual when he/she is face to face with his/her clients and under their horse. You won't ever get it through certifications, degrees or licenses. All you'll get is additional expenses and red tape.

I spent part of last week riding with my original teacher who is not a member of any associations. He did have to go through the trouble of taking the test when Il decided to license farriers (early 90's sometime?). It doesn't sound like the whole thing effected his life very much and I didn't get the impression that he cared much one way or the other. I probably shouldn't either but all this talk about saving the horse from the owner and the owner from himself sticks in my craw when I think the real issue is a few that think they should get middle management saleries for blue collar work just because. I've seen it stated pretty much that way lots of times. Sure it requires knoeledge and skill but any one who thinks that it takes more knowledge or skill than any other decent paying trade is fooling themselves. Some do make a pretty impressive gross while some s****e by but take the responsibility yourself and don't expect some license, regulation or certification to get it for you. It all just smacks of total Bs and where IS that BS bingo card when you need it?
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RE:Have to bring it up again 01 Aug 2005 03:07 #69

  • Rick Burten
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
What is a moderators job on this board?

I've been a mod on boards and we were expected to help keep threads on topic. I guss the owner of this site might have something different in mind.

Ask and you shall receive.

The thread is now locked. Start a new one.

rick
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In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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