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TOPIC: Have to bring it up again

RE:Have to bring it up again 27 Jul 2005 22:26 #46

Hey Rick, How did you get nominated as Super Moderator? What was the method used, wave an arsshole detector and it beeped when it came close to you? You really crack me up. In one note you say horsemanship is not an accolade that one can bestow on ones self. Then you bestow all kinds of accolades on yourself, I definitely argee with the theses, egotism, cynicism, sarcastic nature, pomposity, overbearing ness, but brilliance, or application for sainthood, these are bestowed by others.

I quess I am not really a good horsemen yet and you are no where close. One primary quality is how you treat others; I couldn’t help but stoop to your level and call you an arsshole after I read your comments to Pam. Pam however shows much better quality than both of us. I am sure Pam doesn’t need anyone to fight her battles, but I couldn’t help myself. You’re acting like a school yard bully and I do not like bullies.

You are not hiding the fact that you are very much in love with yourself and very proud of whom you are and enjoy battling with everyone and anyone right or wrong.

As for bottom feeders, this is a description of what you think of certain types of farriers. There is no such thing as bottom feeders; Pam and I are being sarcastic with you. Everyone needs to start somewhere, and there is no better sense of accomplishment and pride than to build something from scratch, especially a business with your own two hands. You have already apologized for the remark and even though you do not feel an apology is in order, I have accepted it. I do not feel an apology is in order either. You are entitled to your opinion and that is all it is an opinion. Worth something to some and totally worthless to others.

Ahhhh, I enjoyed that. Like taking a good ………………..
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Have to bring it up again 28 Jul 2005 03:08 #47

  • Rick Burten
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Phil Armitage wrote:
>Hey Rick, How did you get nominated as Super Moderator?

I was recruited by the site owner. Why?


>What was the method used, wave an arsshole detector and it beeped when it came close to you?

It didn't just beep, it wailed like a tornado warning siren.

>You really crack me up. In one note you say horsemanship is not an accolade that one can bestow on ones self. Then you bestow all kinds of accolades on yourself, I definitely argee with the theses, egotism, cynicism, sarcastic nature, pomposity, overbearing ness,

I'm utterly amazed that you would equate horsemanship to the terms I used. Seems you either are unable to understand the difference between a true accolade, and the use of that term in conjunction with what most would consider derisive terms. You really should get a grip. And, at least I am able to poke fun at myself without taking umbrage. Regardless, it is a lot more proper to apply the terms I used , to one's self, than it is is to annoint one's self with the title, "horseman/woman" Talk about egotistical, arrogant, pompous and overbearing! Me thinks that the fox smelled his own butt first.

>but brilliance, or application for sainthood, these are bestowed by others.

Nah!. Brilliance is self -evident but please do wear your sunglasses as you bask in the reflected glow of mine. Sainthood? who needs it? Or, for that matter, wants it? Certainly not me.

>I quess I am not really a good horsemen yet and you are no where close.

First, though I am hesitant to do so, I will point out that I never said that I am a horseman. Never said I'm not, either. Like I said, I'll leave that to others, who are in a position to determine this issue, to determine it.

>One primary quality is how you treat others;

How one treats or doesn't treat another human being, does not necessarily equate to how one treats the equids(or other animals for that matter) in his/her care. Thus, regardless of how badly you may think I have treated you or others, it has no bearing on what level of horseman I may or may not be. You are mixing metaphores and at least in this case, they don't mix. Try again.

>I couldn’t help but stoop to your level and call you an arsshole after I read your comments to Pam. Pam however shows much better quality than both of us. I am sure Pam doesn’t need anyone to fight her battles, but I couldn’t help myself. You’re acting like a school yard bully and I do not like bullies.

Well, then we have something in common(sort of). See, I don't like or suffer fools and right now, you're acting like one.

Further, do you not find it disingenuous that you now take me to task over some imagined insult when , in the not so distant past, you stood on the side lines and "cheered" as I took on and thoroughly excoriated the unknown quantity who called himself "Just Passin Through"? Where was all this acrimony then? Or is it just because it is now you who have felt the sting of my rapier -like wit and acid-dripping pen? Try this bit of Shakspearean fluff on for size: "This above all, to thine own self be true.." We might ask ourselves which of us has been the more true to themselves.

>You are not hiding the fact that you are very much in love with yourself and very proud of whom you are and enjoy battling with everyone and anyone right or wrong.

Cry havoc! Let loose the dogs of war.....

>As for bottom feeders, this is a description of what you think of certain types of farriers. There is no such thing as bottom feeders;

Demonstrably incorrect.

>Pam and I are being sarcastic with you.

Imagine that! Who knew?

>Everyone needs to start somewhere, and there is no better sense of accomplishment and pride than to build something from scratch, especially a business with your own two hands.

Sad that you have so misread and misinterpreted my comments. C'est la vie. C'est la guerre'.

>You have already apologized for the remark and even though you do not feel an apology is in order, I have accepted it. I do not feel an apology is in order either.

Non Sequitur

>You are entitled to your opinion and that is all it is an opinion. Worth something to some and totally worthless to others.

Remembering the man in the mirror analogy, read that sentence again as you gaze upon your countenance in the mirror.

Ahhhh, I enjoyed that. Like taking a good ………………..

I hope you were wearing your Depends... ("Attention K-mart employees, clean up in aisle three.....")

Rick
(who truely does enjoy this witty reparte')
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Have to bring it up again 28 Jul 2005 10:53 #48

Well you made me laugh this morning. I will need the rest of the day to come up with some come backs. :D

I didnt need the depends, the computer is close to the John.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Have to bring it up again 28 Jul 2005 11:28 #49

  • matryoshka
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Hey Rick,

Thanks for the good laugh!

Your comments don't bother me, and I enjoy a good-natured spar. After your treatement of "Just Passin' Through" (which I did not cheer, and found very distasteful), I know your are fond of dictionaries and the thesaurus. "Horseman: 1. one who rides horseback; also, one skilled in managing horses. 2. a breeder or raiser of horses." (_Websters New Dictionary of the English Language_). So, since I both ride and have bred and trained a number of my own foals, I have Webster's permission to call myself a horseman on two counts. That's a relief, because I had thought maybe the definition had changed while I was raising my kids or something.

One hint about using a thesaurus: look up the definition of the word you plan to substitute, because it may not be an appropriate use of the word in your context. I'm usually pretty good at reading the content within context (my only proof is having been inducted into several appropriate honor societies and graduation with top honors, if you are willing to believe the University of Maryland). I tend to suspect the writing rather than my own reading skills if I interpret the text differently than the writer intended. I guess it is arrogance on my part. Here comes the humility pill!

And, since you frequently use ideas of what passes for good writing to reply to others, Phil didn't use a metaphor. Here's Webster again: "metaphor: a figure of speech in which a word for one idea or thing is used in place of another to suggest a likeness between them (as in 'the ship plows the sea')." See the difference? Phil suggested that you treat horses as poorly as you do some of the posters on this site. He didn't compare the horses to the posters.

Yes, I do some trimming work pro-bono. Mostly neglect cases. This is good experience for me. I trimmed one on Tuesday that walked up head-bobbing lame. He had a 1/2" thick false sole, and two cracks on each front foot. It took me a while, and I was conservative because of my lack of experience, but he walked off comfortably and trotted around without a head bob. My payment? A good feeling inside that I'd helped a horse. That's life at the bottom.

So, money is not the most important issue for me. Trimming horses helps keep my back alligned, saving me from going for PT every couple of weeks to have my pelvis readjusted (bad fall from training an unsafe horse--live and learn). Also, since I was one of the back yard people that farriers didn't like to visit, I want to be a trimmer that visits these people and helps them learn. As they move up in their skills and need somebody to shoe, hopefully that farrier will benefit from all the work I put into the horse and owner. I enjoy training horses. It is fun. Yes, I've been hurt before and will be hurt again. If I was only doing it for the money rather than a sense of accomplishment, it wouldn't be worth the risk. I can make lots more money writing manuals at my computer. Been there (15 years), got bored.

I hope you realize that without bottom feeders, life at the top wouldn't be so good. We take care of the stuff that drifts down (not excrement) and would contaminate the water. Otherwise middle and top feeders would choke to death. I've heard plenty of complaints about how owners need to be educated so that farriers don't get hurt, aren't expected to train, etc. What's wrong with me being one of the people willing to train them? I simply don't aspire to move up in the industry and trim/shoe for big barns or big owners. My husband makes enough to support us, so I don't feel driven to go for more money and big clients. It would take years before I could, anyway, given how long it takes to learn this trade and do it well.

If you are truly a multiple, congratulations for being so open about it. I'm skeptical, but then, you're skeptical of my claims about myself, too.

Pam
Crusader Rabbit Rides Again!
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RE:Have to bring it up again 28 Jul 2005 13:05 #50

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matryoshka wrote:
>Hey Rick,

>Thanks for the good laugh!

De nada.

>Your comments don't bother me, and I enjoy a good-natured spar. After your treatement of "Just Passin' Through" (which I did not cheer, and found very distasteful), I know your are fond of dictionaries and the thesaurus. "

1. so why did you read or keep reading what I wrote?
2. generally speaking and almost all of the time, I don't need to refer back to either dictionaries or the thesaurus.


>Horseman: 1. one who rides horseback; also, one skilled in managing horses. 2. a breeder or raiser of horses." (_Websters New Dictionary of the English Language_). So, since I both ride and have bred and trained a number of my own foals, I have Webster's permission to call myself a horseman on two counts. That's a relief, because I had thought maybe the definition had changed while I was raising my kids or something.

While you choose to use the literal and dictionary definition of 'horseman', and there is nothing wrong with that when done in the context of that definition and the converstaion at hand, Phil and I are referring to a less literal interpretation of that word. An interpretation that goes as much to the 'spirit' of the word as to the physical ownership of a horse or horses. IOW, the mopre esoteric definition of the word. But, given your advanced educational experience, you already knew that, right? You just chose to attempt to take me to task so you could feel that you have bearded the lion in his den, right? That's OK too. Doesn't bother me a bit. Why? Because regardless of how you have tried to spin it, we all know which definition of horseman/woman we are talking about. But if you don't, then perhaps you should stay out of the deep end of this particular discussion and confine yourself to swimming in the intellectual kiddie pool and wearing a life jacket.

> One hint about using a thesaurus: look up the definition of the word you plan to substitute, because it may not be an appropriate use of the word in your context. I'm usually pretty good at reading the content within context (my only proof is having been inducted into several appropriate honor societies and graduation with top honors, if you are willing to believe the University of Maryland). I tend to suspect the writing rather than my own reading skills if I interpret the text differently than the writer intended.

What you suspect and what actually is, are two different kettles of fish.

>I guess it is arrogance on my part. Here comes the humility pill!

As large as that pill needs to be, I hope you have someone around to perform a Heimlich maneuver in case you choke on it.

>And, since you frequently use ideas of what passes for good writing to reply to others, Phil didn't use a metaphor. Here's Webster again: "metaphor: a figure of speech in which a word for one idea or thing is used in place of another to suggest a likeness between them (as in 'the ship plows the sea')." See the difference? Phil suggested that you treat horses as poorly as you do some of the posters on this site. He didn't compare the horses to the posters.

Why thanks for the grammar lesson. No, really. In light of said correction, would it be proper to say that Phil used an analogy? No? What term then, would you choose to define Phil's (Unintentional, I believe) comparison of the term 'horseman', etal to the generally considered derisive and derogatory terms I supplied in describing my attributes?

>Yes, I do some trimming work pro-bono. Mostly neglect cases. This is good experience for me.

Would you go so far as to say, "uplifting"?

>I trimmed one on Tuesday that walked up head-bobbing lame. He had a 1/2" thick false sole, and two cracks on each front foot. It took me a while, and I was conservative because of my lack of experience, but he walked off comfortably and trotted around without a head bob. My payment? A good feeling inside that I'd helped a horse. That's life at the bottom.

Au Contraire, that life, period. Has nothing to do with the definition I provided for the term 'bottom feeders". Remember, content in context.

>So, money is not the most important issue for me. Trimming horses helps keep my back alligned, saving me from going for PT every couple of weeks to have my pelvis readjusted

It would appear, that you are the exception rather than the rule. How so? Well, because most of us (farriers that is) go for PT, or OT, or Chirporactic , and the like, because what we do, has such a long term negative impact on our bodies. How fortunate you are to be experiencing quite the oposite.

>(bad fall from training an unsafe horse--live and learn).

Would you say that this incident occurred at least partially because of your (at least at that time), lack of horsemanship(see, your definition from Webster's, above, #1, after the ';' bad judgement, incompetence, or what?

>Also, since I was one of the back yard people that farriers didn't like to visit, I want to be a trimmer that visits these people and helps them learn.

This presupposes at least two things:

1. the people want to learn and learn from you(How arrogant and egotistical, etc, is that opinion that you hold?)
2. That you have the requisite skill, knowledge and teaching ability, to convey your message(s).

At this point in time, neither of those suppositions has been demonstrated to exist.

> As they move up in their skills and need somebody to shoe, hopefully that farrier will benefit from all the work I put into the horse and owner.

Hope should not be a role player in this equation.

>I enjoy training horses. It is fun. Yes, I've been hurt before and will be hurt again. If I was only doing it for the money rather than a sense of accomplishment, it wouldn't be worth the risk. I can make lots more money writing manuals at my computer. Been there (15 years), got bored.

Engaging in the art and science of the behavior management of horses just because you were bored, is not enough of a reason to subject them to your gentle ministrations. That you do so because it amuses you and gives you pleasure, is less a definition of horseman/horsemanship, than it is of self-serving, touchy-feely, PC , self satisfaction. IOW, your acting more like an owner than a horseman/woman.

>I hope you realize that without bottom feeders, life at the top wouldn't be so good.

Sure it would. And, though you continue to misunderstand my use of the term bottom feeder, it changes not one thing. Those working "at the top" are going to work there whether or not there is any bottom feeding going on. All that is affected, is that lower eschelon in the hierarchy.
>
We take care of the stuff that drifts down (not excrement) and would contaminate the water.

So you do consider some denizens of your(admitted) level of work to be contaminated? filthy?

>Otherwise middle and top feeders would choke to death.

Why? If those individuals are not providing services to the group you describe, then they have little to fear from them. And, you will note, that when I was talking about bottom feeders, I was referring to a certain sub-sect of hoofcare providers, not the horses or their owners. You on the other hand,......

>I've heard plenty of complaints about how owners need to be educated so that farriers don't get hurt, aren't expected to train, etc. What's wrong with me being one of the people willing to train them?

Nothing, so long as you are competent and qualified. Two requirements that still have not been proven. And, given the reasons you provided above as your reason for your career path change(boredom, etc), one is , at least for now, left to wonder.

> I simply don't aspire to move up in the industry and trim/shoe for big barns or big owners.

That is not what it is all about. Sorry you missed that fact. And, once again, you have taken comments out of context, and mis-applied their meaning. Now, about that recognition from the University of Maryland..........

>My husband makes enough to support us, so I don't feel driven to go for more money and big clients.

Ah, so your sojourn in the field of hoofcare is a mere dalliance. Now I begin to see the bigger picture.

> It would take years before I could, anyway, given how long it takes to learn this trade and do it well.

I am heartend to see that you at least understand this fact. That alone, seperates you from those that I have referred to as bottom feeders.

>If you are truly a multiple, congratulations for being so open about it. I'm skeptical, but then, you're skeptical of my claims about myself, too.

A healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing for most, if not all , of us to nourish.

I really don't know if I am a classic multiple("hey, shut up, of course you are. No I'm not, Oh yeha? says who?, certainly not me. How 'bout you N-ernie? Or you, Two Dogs?")

>Pam

Rick (and the gang)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Have to bring it up again 28 Jul 2005 19:11 #51

Is anyone on this thread ever shoeing horses?

If so WHEN?



Ronald Aalders
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RE:Have to bring it up again 28 Jul 2005 19:54 #52

  • matryoshka
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You're right, Ron.

I was thinking that we should probably poke fun at each other off line. However, I've been enjoying myself too much to let Rick have the last word. I was scr_appy as a child and never grew out of it. :D I do have some self control and will stop my side of the bickering.

I don't shoe horses yet. I'm not nearly experienced enough. I trim and have a farrier check the quality of my work whenever possible. I'm looking forward to riding with this farrier so I can learn more from him. I wore him down by pestering him with questions until he finally agreed to bring me along to some of his jobs. I don't know if I'll ever decide to shoe. There is so much to learn, and I want to see the barefoot horses I regularly trim through an entire growth cycle before I even consider shoeing.

My kids are at the baby sitter's house and I don't have any trims scheduled, so it's laundry day. Motherhood continues in spite of horses, hooves, and bulletin boards. :p

Pam
Crusader Rabbit Rides Again!
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RE:Have to bring it up again 28 Jul 2005 20:36 #53

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matryoshka wrote:
>I understood the usage you are referring to, which I take to be the way horseman apply the term, but I get tired of the hair splitting of definitions on these boards. It's just plain silly.

I don't consider it hairsplitting when the term horseman(in its more esoteric form) is bandied about by people who think they can bestow that honorary on themselves. And though you may consider it silly, I consider it ******.

>I had hoped to lighten the mood a bit, but I guess I failed. So much for my "superior" communication skills.

back to the salt mine.

{personal background information deleted}

There is no way to prove my horsemanship skills to you. I could give you anectdotal stories, but that wouldn't get us anywhere, either.

Nor is there any need to do so. The plural of anecdote is not data, so you are also correct in that respect. However, were someone who was recognized themselves as a "horseman[esoteric form]" to refer to you as a horseman, then that would have value and weight. And, that information should be unsolicited.

>Perhaps going to a bar, drinking a few beers among friends, and swapping war stories would convince you, but I doubt it.

Your perception is uncannily accurate.

>Maybe Mike and Phil would join us.

Other than to exchange pleasentries or as you say, war stories, what would be the point/purpose. Still wouldn't make them or cause them to become, a horseman(esoteric definition). Nor would it establish that honorary for me.

>Yes, I did hurt myself making a poor decision by training a neurotic horse. It wasn't a good choice, and I was pressured into doing it, but I should have said no. That was 15 years ago, and the horse belongs to my mother.

all the more reason for saying , "No"

>The professional trainer helping me made a bad choice, too, and the injury happened while following her advice.

So, someone purporting to be a professional trainer put you into a situation and got you badly injured. Not very professional of her. Makes you wonder just how professional she was/is.

> I've raised, trained, and sold a number of foals since then.

Still doesn't make you a trainer.

.>As for helping horse owners understand how to handle their horses better, I don't give unwanted advice.

How do you quantify whether or not your advice is wanted or not, legal, correct or even necessary?

> However, if the horse is rearing or trying to kick me, I tell the handler what to do.

Philosophically, the handler should already have known what to do, and thus picked up on the horse's 'tells" and dealt with the situation before it got to the point it did. Not very good horsemanship was exhibited there.

>Most of the backyard owners I have met are happy to be given a little advice about hoof care and welcome help understanding the feedback a horse gives while it is being worked. If not, I hold my peace.

By intervening, you establish a different level of relationship, one that may jump up and bite you somewhere down the road.

Am I arrogant? Would I know or be willing to admit it if I were? I guess it is one of those terms such as "horsemanship" (your definition of the term) when the label must be applied by others.

Nah. It is definately a term one can and should apply to themselves, rather than waiting for others to do it for them.

>And I did take "bottom feeder" to mean those at the bottom of the hoofcare-professional hierarchy. There've been so many posts since your first use of the term that I don't feel like going back and looking up your usage.

Pity, you might finally understand its use, in context.

>And how am I to be sure that you weren't using it in a spiritual sense, where the only way to be sure of your intended use is to be one of the alters in your head?

There is no misunderstanding the term 'arrogant' or any of its diriviteves. And there is nothing esoteric about that word.

> By the stuff that drifts down to the boottom feeders, I was refering to clients that the full-time farriers don't want. Those are the ones I take on. If left without care by a patient person who is interested in/capable of trimming correctly, they'll keep calling different full-time guys who don't want to do their work and may get stuck having to train the animal to stand properly in order to finish the job. If I am somebody who wants to service these clients, aren't I keeping the waters cleaner for the guys further up the hierarchy?

No. Why? Because they have already cleared their waters(so to speak).

And if/when they learn how to get their horses to behave properly, other farriers will benefit when the horse is sold.

And if /wehn they don't?

{more deletia on my part}

>I'm out of practice for verbal sparring, and I prefer to stay polite when possible. I did not read all of your replies to "Just Passing Through." I stopped when it got really rude, and I just scanned for posts by people who usually retain good manners.

Well, depending on the subject, I have been known to retain/maintain what you and perhaps Ms. Manners would consider to be good manners. the rest of the time, I answer how I choose. America, What a Country!

> I was curious about the argument, and I thought you bullied the man horribly.

ROTFLAMO! What adjective(s) would you use to describe JPTs interaction with or conduct towards Patty? On the other hand, "Bullied" , I like that!

>I'd not be proud of making somebody feel ******.

One feels ****** because one is ****** or has done something ******. The onus is on that individual, not the other.

In fact, though it does happen only rarely, even I have done or said something that later I felt to be ******, and thus, made me, at least for an instant, ******.

> God gives us all different areas of skill, and I try to respect others and their achievements. I also try to believe their claims about themselves unless proven otherwise rather than disbelieving everyone unless they proved proof.

You are indeed fortunate that you live during a time when Phineas T. Barnum does not.

>I don't take advice from these people unless I can back up the info from another source.

What makes that second source so infallable.

>I'm sure it sounds overly lovey-dovey to a lot of people on these boards, but I've got estrogen not testosterone in my system. I'm a mother of school-age children to boot.

Are you looking for our congratulations or our sympathy?

>I didn't think I'd bearded a lion. I don't think you are a lion, either.

Well, last I checked, I wasn't a (ahem) Pu*sYcat. So perhaps you can, with your untrammeled ability to discern, tell us(no , not just the us in my head, but all of us here) what you think I am.

>I get my regular dose of humility every time I see my doctor when I have to look inside myself and see the truth of my motivations and feelings. Luckily my doctor breaks it into pills small enough to swallow without choking.

You need a doctor for this? I just need a moment of quiet time.

>You seem proud of what you know about yourself.

Should I not be? Pray tell , why?

>You also seem to enjoy interpreting any comments people make about themselves in a negative light.

The harsh light of reality often shines it light in that manner. Its why so many people, like cockroaches, skuttle to the darkness at the edges of that beam of light.

>I try to see the positive, unless somebody is persistenly critical, as you have been.

different strokes for different folks. I try to avoid all that PC, Lovie-dovie, soft strokes and warm fuzzies, gushy, la-la, self-effusing, puke inducing garbage, as much as possible.

Shooting the messenger does not change the message one iota.


>I guess it is fun for you.

YOu can stop guessing.

>Even though I have taken the time to defend myself here (especially since I waded into the deepend with you), your comments don't really hurt me.

Defend yourself? from what? ROTFLAMO!

>You don't know me well enough to inflict harm, and I'm sure as heck not trying to cause you any.

I don't know you at all, nor have I tried to inflict any harm. But honesty, never mind integrity, can be a brutal beast at times.

I'm not sure whether you are actually trying to be hurtful, or whether you consider sarcasm to be humorous.

You would not have to wonder if I was trying to be hurtful(though as moderator on these forums, I would have to castigate myself if I felt I had been intentionally hurtful). And yes, and good for you that you finally have realized that I often use sarcasm as a humor venue. And when I don't, that is fairly obvious, too.

Remember, training is about behavior modification. In this little exercise we have been conducting the last several days, whose behavior would you say has been modified?

>I enjoy contrary horses, and I sometimes enjoy contrary people as well. Life would be boring without either.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

>Pam

Rick

(disclaimer: No horses or other animals were hurt or injured during the typing of these correspondence)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Have to bring it up again 28 Jul 2005 22:41 #54

  • matryoshka
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Well Rick,

You have an interesting style of argument. You can refute anything you like by refusing to believe what they say, trying to make them sound ****** or belittling their goals and ideas. If they list their qualifications for stating an opinion, you can accuse them of bragging or arrogance. And if somebody disagrees with your statement, you can always claim they misunderstood (what ******s!) your writing. Touche.

Your opinions are not fact. I'm not sure I've claimed to be a horseman or a trainer, except in jest or in the dictionary sense of the term. Perhaps you mean "good horseman" or "good trainer." Your opinion of my skills doesn't matter to me, and I'm surprised I even bothered to defend them. Hmmm. Must be a weak spot, huh? Your tactics are pretty effective, I guess. Clearer writing on your part with well defined terms (less esoteric) would help me to understand your frilly writing better. As I said, I'm not good with metaphors, even when they are well written. I don't think I've ever claimed perfection. Remember, you have to keep it simple for us techies. We're so focused on mechanics and figuring out how things work that we get lost in the maze of phrases, clauses, metaphors, and literary references. Also, despite my background with the DoD, I don't understand all the long acronyms people use here. I'm dyslexic, and It's tough for me to sort out all those concatenated capitals (I DO love alliteration).

As for what you are, I have no idea. From your picture I assume you are a man. I've gotten some idea of your writing skills and possibly your humor but know little about you as a person. I actually don't know what your skill is as a farrier, come to think of it. I haven't seen pictures of your work. I've been assuming from the respect you are shown on these boards that you have considerable skill as a farrier. I read attentatively when you are providing hoof care information but don't bother to read as carefully (actually skip, mostly) when you mount your soapbox. I can't stand all the exhaust. Again, the fault is mine for not sifting through your writing style and line-by-line rebuttals. I prefer clear, well written text (not that I write that way on this board, obviously).

When I check on advice/information provided, if two or more sources agree, it is more likely to be accurate. If I'm not satisfied with what I find, I continue looking. It is called research. How about you? Do you just rely on your own experience and simply disbelieve everything you hear or see? Were you born a fully educated farrier? Did you have to start learning from somebody? How many trims/shoeing jobs did you mess up before you attained your current level of arrogance? Maybe you invented shoeing and hoof care. I have no way of knowing your qualifications for sure. I don't claim great skill, just a thirst for knowledge and a willingness to put in the hard work to learn to be a great trimmer.

After reading your last post, I find I'm not interested in having a beer in your presence afterall. I thought you might be a colorful individual, but now you seem a boor. Pity.

Boar! That's it! Do you have tusks? Are you warty? You do have some facial hair, so I may be close. I believe boar are very dangerous to hunt, since they can't see much with their little piggy eyes, attack anything that moves, and charge with great speed. I also seem to remember that their weakness is their inability to change direction once they have begun a charge.

I should have stated clearly that there isn't much you (and all your alters combined) can do to hurt me. You don't have to pull your punches. You would know if I was trying to draw blood. I have no interest in such a pursuit. Sparring IS fun, though. I figure you can take MUCH worse than I have delivered so far, since you dish it out. As for JPT, he was also very rude. Patty is well able to defend herself without your help. Taking offense on her behalf does you credit, though. You drew blood in your response whereas he delivered less than a nick. You knew he wasn't able to defend himself word-for-word on this board. That is bullying. You took him apart. I don't admire you for that. I hope I haven't broken your heart :D .

You also have another talent: getting people to respond even when they have said they wouldn't. You may not be able to change direction at speed, but I have a hard time giving up the last word. My bad.

Enjoy a beer/Pepsi with the people who, for whatever reason, tolerate your presence. I'll stick to going out for a beer with my husband and friends. Too bad, really, I love a good argument. :rolleyes:

Pam

p.s. This has been fun, but as Ron pointed out, it has nothing to do with hoof care. If you were interested, I'd continue the sparring off line (i.e. via email). You don't seem to think I'm a worthy opponent, so I doubt I could induce you to continue via email. We are wasting board space by indulging this taste for trying to get the last word. I haven't had this much fun arguing with somebody since I got married and had kids. I gave up man-bashing when I met my husband. Because he's such a great guy, I feel guilty whenever I come up with a good cut. Sigh. The things we do for love.
Crusader Rabbit Rides Again!
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RE:Have to bring it up again 29 Jul 2005 01:00 #55

Ronald Aalders wrote:
Is anyone on this thread ever shoeing horses?

If so WHEN?



Ronald Aalders

Yep, 5 days a week between 9:00 am and 5:00 pm. Have to work this Saturday in the morning. Oh, I also run one daughter to day camp in the morning, pickup my nephew and put in a couple of evenings a week working with my own horses and still have time to get on here. I don't shoe horses at night and early in the morning :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Have to bring it up again 29 Jul 2005 01:17 #56

I do not need to defend Mr. Burten. He is quite capable of defending himself in any fracas. His credentials would fill a line of text. His inttelligence and reasoning skills are beyond most people you will meet. I have never, in eight years of sharing these boards with him, and having him fairly judge my first failed attempt at my CJF test, seen him treat anyone other than how they deserved to be treated. If someone wishes to fight, and engages in brutal tactics, any good Marine brings all forces to bear. Is it his fault that almost no one has the arsenal and ability he posses to iviscerate any enemy who is foolish enough to attack him or his brothers-in-arms?
His writing is exactly as he is in person, insightful, humerous, opininated and unequiviocaly Rick Burten. One does not need to guess where he stands or what he thinks: he will tell you. Men, or people, such as he are rare, they do not need others to know who and what they are!(Of course he carries his posse around with him :D )
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:Have to bring it up again 29 Jul 2005 01:40 #57

  • Rick Burten
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matryoshka wrote:

>You have an interesting style of argument.

Thanks for noticing.

> You can refute anything you like by refusing to believe what they say,

Isn't that the essence of any argument? Or did I miss something while I was sleeping through Debate 101?

>trying to make them sound ****** or belittling their goals and ideas.

Fact is, I don't have to try very hard, if at all.

> If they list their qualifications for stating an opinion, you can accuse them of bragging or arrogance.

Listing one's qualifications or a CV as the case may be is not bragging or arrogance, so long as it is appropriate. Making unsubstantiated claims regarding your prowess at a given task, is a whole 'nother thing.

> And if somebody disagrees with your statement, you can always claim they misunderstood (what ******s!) your writing. Touche.

Well, if it is a statement of fact, that is one thing. Often, I offer my own skewed opinion(s) which can then be addressed by anyone interested in doing so. Not being able to read for content in context, absent any lack of good clarity of text, is not a failure on the part of the writer, rather on the part of the respondee or reader.

>Your opinions are not fact.

Correct! And I have never touted them as such. Have I?

>I'm not sure I've claimed to be a horseman or a trainer, except in jest or in the dictionary sense of the term.

And my response to you was quite clear in acknowledging that fact.

>Perhaps you mean "good horseman" or "good trainer."

No, I meant exactly what I wrote.

> Your opinion of my skills doesn't matter to me,

What a relief to know that! Actually, the only ones your skills, or lack there of , matter too, are the horses who are in your care. Unless of course you happen to , at some time, stand for an AFA or GPF certification exam,and I happen to be either your tester or examiner. Or if you should ever seek employment with my farrier firm.

>and I'm surprised I even bothered to defend them. Hmmm. Must be a weak spot, huh?

The truth will out.

>Your tactics are pretty effective, I guess. Clearer writing on your part with well defined terms (less esoteric) would help me to understand your frilly writing better.

For example?

>As I said, I'm not good with metaphors, even when they are well written. I don't think I've ever claimed perfection. Remember, you have to keep it simple for us techies.

No, you techies need to be able to function at a higher/different level( for clarity sake,having nothing here to do with bottom feeding and the like).

>We're so focused on mechanics and figuring out how things work that we get lost in the maze of phrases, clauses, metaphors, and literary references.

Maps are available for a nominal fee.

>Also, despite my background with the DoD, I don't understand all the long acronyms people use here. I'm dyslexic, and It's tough for me to sort out all those concatenated capitals (I DO love alliteration).

You have but to ask and the acronyms will be readily explained/defined.

>As for what you are, I have no idea. From your picture I assume you are a man.

It is dangerous to make assumptions, but in this case, you are correct.

> I've gotten some idea of your writing skills and possibly your humor but know little about you as a person.

Whats to know?

>I actually don't know what your skill is as a farrier, come to think of it.

Well, I'm the wrong one to ask because I won't be accused of self-aggrandization, or false claims of modesty.

>I haven't seen pictures of your work.

If you go to http://www.msn.com/TinkersDamnForge you will find some six pages of photos on a horse that at the time I took the photos, I was working on for the first time. While it is not a broad spectrum of my work, it is quite representative.

>I've been assuming from the respect you are shown on these boards that you have considerable skill as a farrier.

That decision I leave to others. I do what I do and am never ashamed to face the man in the mirror.

>I read attentatively when you are providing hoof care information but don't bother to read as carefully (actually skip, mostly) when you mount your soapbox.

Fair enough. Ain't livin' in the land of (usually) free choice, grand?

>I can't stand all the exhaust. Again, the fault is mine for not sifting through your writing style and line-by-line rebuttals. I prefer clear, well written text (not that I write that way on this board, obviously).

What you see is what you get.

>When I check on advice/information provided, if two or more sources agree, it is more likely to be accurate.

So, if you were inquiring(because you didn't know) as to whether or not the world was flat, and two or more sources agreed that yes indeed the world is flat, you would believe it?

>If I'm not satisfied with what I find, I continue looking. It is called research. How about you? Do you just rely on your own experience and simply disbelieve everything you hear or see?

While my personal experience does count for a lot with me, I do listen(or whatever) to what others have to offer. I then, using my own unique set of chaff removers start the sifting program to attempt to reach sustainable conclusions. And, in answer to your last question, I treat most all information, especially new, unproven, little known, etc information with a healthy degree of skepticism. >Were you born a fully educated farrier?

Nope, just fully nekkid.

>Did you have to start learning from somebody?

Sure, didn't we all(all that is except Adam and Eve, if you buy into that story)

>How many trims/shoeing jobs did you mess up before you attained your current level of arrogance?

I have probably always had this level of arrogance. Can't say for sure, because what you might perceive as arrogance, I might not. Any way, Sure I have botched my fair share of trim/shoeing jobs. How many exactly? Quien sabe? I never kept, nor do I now keep track or score. I will say that the numbers have muchly deminished over the span of years of my farrier practice.

>Maybe you invented shoeing and hoof care.

I think that was Al Gore.

> I have no way of knowing your qualifications for sure.

Well, since I'm not into self aggrandization, you'll have to do your due dilligence to answer that question.

> I don't claim great skill, just a thirst for knowledge and a willingness to put in the hard work to learn to be a great trimmer.

Two necessary requirements if anyone is going to make it as a farrier.

>After reading your last post, I find I'm not interested in having a beer in your presence afterall. I thought you might be a colorful individual, but now you seem a boor. Pity.

The pity is all yours.

>Boar! That's it! Do you have tusks? Are you warty? You do have some facial hair, so I may be close.

Close only counts with Horseshoes(the game), hand grenades and nuclear war.

>I believe boar are very dangerous to hunt, since they can't see much with their little piggy eyes, attack anything that moves, and charge with great speed. I also seem to remember that their weakness is their inability to change direction once they have begun a charge.

Actually, those Arkansas Razorbacks(which I am assuming(oops) you are referring to) are really nimble and quick on their feet, see fairly well, and yes, they(we?) will attack. Further, they lack neither in courage or perseverance.

>I should have stated clearly that there isn't much you (and all your alters combined) can do to hurt me.

First, that was never my(our?) intention. s
Second, why would I(we) want to?

>You don't have to pull your punches. You would know if I was trying to draw blood. I have no interest in such a pursuit. Sparring IS fun, though. I figure you can take MUCH worse than I have delivered so far, since you dish it out. As for JPT, he was also very rude. Patty is well able to defend herself without your help. Taking offense on her behalf does you credit, though. You drew blood in your response whereas he delivered less than a nick. You knew he wasn't able to defend himself word-for-word on this board. That is bullying. You took him apart. I don't admire you for that. I hope I haven't broken your heart :D .

I only pull punches as required by law(Baron, Himself). Dish away.

Drawing blood or counting coup on JPT's scalp goes with the territory.
Whether or not you admire me or respect me is of no concern to me. I did/do what I do because it pleases or amuses me. What you seem to think was bullying, I don't. He chose the arena, he made rules. He got what he asked for. How could he or you be unhappy with the outcome?

First, you assume I have a heart. A fact whose veracity is still in question.

You also have another talent: getting people to respond even when they have said they wouldn't. You may not be able to change direction at speed, but I have a hard time giving up the last word. My bad.

Like I said, an exercise in behavior managment. Perhaps you will have gleaned enough from this exercise, to apply that experience to other areas of your life, personal and/or professional. And, even if you choose not to avail yourself of this new enlightenment and experence, I will still have succeeded because you will now work hard to avoid the lessons offered and learned. It truely is a win-win situation.

>Enjoy a beer/Pepsi with the people who, for whatever reason, tolerate your presence. I'll stick to going out for a beer with my husband and friends. Too bad, really, I love a good argument.

Generally speaking, I prefer the company of animals to that of humans.

>Pam

Rick n the boys.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Have to bring it up again 29 Jul 2005 01:45 #58

  • Rick Burten
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Jason Maki wrote:
I do not need to defend Mr. Burten.

I thought I had either lost or completely sublimated the ability to blush. After reading what was just written by Jason, I find this not to be true.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Have to bring it up again 30 Jul 2005 03:31 #59

Pam, from what I read I think you totaly out did Rick. I am impressed. :D

Very good job.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Have to bring it up again 30 Jul 2005 12:43 #60

  • Mike Ferrara
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Some moderator should clean up this thread by splitting off the off topic posts into a seperate thread.
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