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TOPIC: Have to bring it up again

Have to bring it up again 18 Jul 2005 11:42 #1

  • Mike Ferrara
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I seem to get my copy of PF a bit later than some of the rest of you...well hey, in Star City the barber is also the mailman and knows every one by name but still mixes up the mail. LOL When I get them I skim it and set it aside until I have a chance to really sit down and read it. Yesterday I finally had a chance to do that and then headed out to do a couple of quick trims for a new client close to home.

It seems that most of the new calls I'm getting are horses in a real mess but I'm not sure that's unexpected when we're talking about people who've been without a farrier for a period of time for one reason or the other. Being new around here I get the **** anyway. These horses were no different...unbelievably long, bars grown out to the toes, under-run heels, thrush ect.

To get to the point , I had just read the presidents letter in PF. Before I go any further I'll mention that I probably will write the AFA and/or PF but for now I wanted to bring it up here. Craig Trnka definately seems to feel that farriers need regulation to protect us from the animal rights folks and horses need it to protect them from poor farriers. He obviously intends to work toward regulation...though he states "self regulated".

The above horses I mentioned and others that I've mentioned here were in such a mess because of NO farriery and bad ownership and not as a result of bad farriery. No doubt the barefooters would have used pictures of these feet as evidence that traditional farriers are bad but it seems the AFA would have their own uses for pictures of these feet.

I've also mentioned my previous experience with "self regulation" in an industry. I have absolutely no desire to to repeat that experience. I've also said that the first thing I'd do if the AFA pushed for licensing or any other kind of regulation is to distance myself from them. If the AFA goals are in line with the presidents then it would seem that time is here.

"Self regulated" is what I am now. If he has his way I'll be regulated by the AFA and/or the other associations. The AFA is in a unique position to make a real contribution in equine education. That's good but apparantly at least some of the leadership wants to be much more and I want no part of it. It's too bad because farriers need the combined buying power when it comes to things like insurance. Things farriers really need. I for one am not buying protection though. I'm not in the market to buy a babysitter or pay for some one else to be baby sat. Any one who wants to help horses needs to get with horse owners long before they look at regulating farriers although I'm also against one guy telling another how he/she must manage their livestock.

I'd rather just be left alone to shoe horses but before I go along with this I'll start an association for unassociated "free" farriers who wish to remain that way and I think they are still in the majority.

This "self regulation" malarky is just a way to force a market for an associations own products. The next thing you know is all farriers would have to carry the AFA standards in their pocket and strictly adhere to them because not doing so would increase legal risk or even be a requirement of your insurance company...You think not? A dive instructor must do that whether the standards are any good or not...and they usually are not. No fooling, I really think that those of you who haven't seen where this can go are in for a real education...far more of an education than the AFA or any other association has offered you so far. "PADI the way the world learns to dive" to be read as "PADI, the way the world is forced to dive and teach diving even though it kills people and exists only to put money in PADI's pocket." Oh, they make a fortune selling diver certifications, educational materials that are mostly advertisement for other products, instructor memberships, dive store memberships, resort memberships, dive charter memberships, university memberships...all of which must attain one or more levels of agency certification. It's a hell of a racket. BTW, PADI is the professional association of diving instructors often effectionatly refered to as Put Another Dollar In...or... Pay And Die Instantly.

Well ok, this is where I get off.
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RE:Have to bring it up again 19 Jul 2005 01:04 #2

  • Noreaster
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Interesting. Might have to start carrying disclaimer forms and waivers and a digital camera to take before and after pics to protect one self. For me, the jury's still out on regulation, however, I do think regulation would weed out all but the most committed, serious, dedicated horsehoers. That's not to say that there would'nt still be incidences of incompetence, but the vast majority of farriers would probably be serious enough to be interested in improving their skills. And, it would probably be the beginning of the end for the cowboy shoer.

I don't know, just a thought. I suppose there would still be a lot of hacks that get grandfathered in and continue to hack it up for the next twenty years or so.
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RE:Have to bring it up again 19 Jul 2005 02:15 #3

Mike- The AFA dosen't have an official way of shoeing horses only "guidelines for judging farrier certification and horseshoeing compition". That pamphlet specificaly states that it is not intended to anything more than that. So I think that eliminates your concern there.

RGX- The digital camera idea is a good one now. Don't think you can be sued without a licence?
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RE:Have to bring it up again 19 Jul 2005 05:10 #4

  • Bill Adams
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Roy,
The AFA will come up with "guidelines" in 1.3 seconds if the regulation attitude is in power. Remember the AFA leadership is elected. With a few mass mailings it could go NB or merge with the bwfa and old Ralph would be all powerful. I'm not saying these things are in the works but anything could happen.
I think we should be working to be protected from regulation. There is nothing stoping any horse owner from going after any cowboy shoer or any FWCF-CJF (although a CJF might be easyer to catch). If we stressed licencing horse owners first, it might put the shoe on the other foot, pun intended.

RGX,
Actually it would put a burden on the most dedicated and force a lot of the good ones to give up. That would open the door to more hacks who would be hired by the cheap owners wanting to save twenty bucks (regulation would run the price up). Again licence the owner. Of cource that would raise the cost of horse ownership, there would be a drop in the horse population, and we'ed be back in 1920 again.
The only advantage I see in licencing would be for the two week wonder master farrier who failed at his business, as he could be the County Farriery Inspector.
Whats your name anyway?

My $0.02, Bill

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Have to bring it up again 19 Jul 2005 07:09 #5

I didn't want to butt in in the other thread on licensing, also it was way too far on its way for to read everything......

Here in Holland we've had the opposite a few years back. In Holland there are rules for everything. Obviously for shoeing too. Shoers had to take an exam before they were allowed to shoe horses. It more or less originated from those guilds centuries ago.

Anyway in 1996 Brussels decided EU countries don't need such rules anymore and among others, shoer licensing rules we're abolished. That was a big deal back then. So what we did as horse shoer association was come up with our own licensing. We still have that.

All this, the governement license, the scratching of that one, and us coming up with a new kind of license, never made any real difference to anyone. There are still customers that pay a few bucks less for an unqualified shoer. That will never change and who cares? I never had any customer ask me for any diploma and you know what? I don't carry it around (I'm not sure I know where the thing is :rolleyes: ). I don't write it on my truck I'm qualified, no one knows. It doesn't make any difference.

The real discussion here should be on the pro's and con's of regulation itself. Not about worries some inspector is going to drive around visiting barns checking up on shoeing done. (He'll have a job in OK and TX, I'll tell you that!)

What should be discussed here is the sueing part. I just saw a few mentioning this sideways. If you shoe a horse without being able to prove you know what you're doing, you'll find it harder to try and explain a jury you did not mess up. A diploma definitely helps here. Also getting coverage from an insurance company may be cheaper when regulation is in place.

What also should be discussed is what happens if someone comes up with something better that is not a part of the education program of a shoer? What if someone comes up with a new thought and finds it really works? Just imagine licensing is about perimeter shoeing? What if you shoe a horse with a square toe because it stumbles a lot. You use a square toe the horse stumbles anyway falls down hurts the rider? You may be sued because some vet and shoers think a square toe will make a horse stumble! So just because the square toe is not part of the education program it may be considered a way of shoeing you should not follow. If you do, because you know better, it may get you in trouble.

You guys think this is far fetched? What about a banana shoe guys?

In my opinion - being the outsider I obviously am in this matter - such questions should be raised and answered, rather than shoers worrying about inspectors driving around checking up on shoeing.

My $0.024 (that's the equivalent of €0.02 in $............)



Ronald Aalders
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RE:Have to bring it up again 19 Jul 2005 10:48 #6

  • Mike Ferrara
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Ron,

That's what we have in dive instruction. There are lots of agencies but only a few big ones. As far as I know, you can only get insurance if you are a member of one. When you become an instructor you agree to follow the standards. The insurance company clearily states in your policy that you are only covered if you folloe those standards. Some agencies give the instriuctor more latitude than others but the biggest give the least room. Mind you they aren't any where near the strictest standards for the student, in fact the bar couldn't be much lower, they're just confining for the instructor. Deviating from standards voids your insurance.

To draw a parallel to shoeing, if the standards said heartbars are used to treat founder then you wouldn't dare use NB because the insurance company wouldn't consider it defensible. All inovation is up to the agency because trying something new would be deviating from standards and something you just wouldn't risk.

Either way, the biggest problem I see for the horse or the farrier is bad owners. I see this whole licensing thing as an attempt to introduce a barrier to entry. Farriers have always pizzed and moaned about new guys, cheaper guys or whatever. When I first started I had guys mad about my price (I started out charging what my teacher suggested I charge) and I almost had to fight going into some barns. I was actually threatened by one farrier...not that such things bothered me in those days.
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RE:Have to bring it up again 19 Jul 2005 11:58 #7

  • Mike Ferrara
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BTW, I got a call from the guy who got me started all those years ago. He can't keep up and says I need to come back to the area. The first account he wanted me to pick up for him is an account I left over ten years ago about the time I was getting divorced and shortly before I moved out of town. Since then they've tried lots of farriers. I called and they can't wait for me to come back...after 10 years or more! There are lots of certified farriers in the area so what's the problem?

Who is it that needs the protection of licensing? I say it's the associations. It's just a power grab. In a way I can see why. My old teacher has never been an AFA member (obviously not certified) and niether was his teacher yet they get top dollar, have the best accounts and are as busy as they can stand and then some. If you want membership dues or certification fees from them you will need a law to get it. If you want to force those clients to a "certified farrier" you'll need a law for that too. That's what's going on here. AFA or guild certification has no weight with any one except the AFA and the guild. That's probably a minority of farriers correct? They don't like it so they're going to try to convince legeslators that the horses need protection or some such nonsense. Oh, they'll hide behind claims of saving the horse or the profession. and who knows, a few of them may even believe it. As in most other situations, if you want to find out what's going on...follow the money.

I don't suppose I'll change any one elses mind here but I for one won't be sending any membership dues out next year. I'll keep shoeing horses until I decide I can't, don't want to or armed men convince me that I don't want to.

If nothing else the presidents letter was a good start at drawing a clear line in the dirt. Once the lines are drawn then at least folks can decide which side of it they want to be on.
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RE:Have to bring it up again 19 Jul 2005 14:13 #8

Mike Ferrara wrote:
Ron,
All inovation is up to the agency because trying something new would be deviating from standards and something you just wouldn't risk.

Exactly my point Mike. That's what really worries me. But this point here does not really have to do anything with licensing, but with insurance companies that are not informed and consider this too small a market to send people out to find out.



Ronald Aalders
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RE:Have to bring it up again 19 Jul 2005 21:34 #9

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Bill- can you elaborate on how exactly regulation might cause qualified, committed farriers to give up ? I agree that requireing horse owners to have a license to own a horse might seem counterintuitive and could dissuade some potential horse owners from owning a horse. That to me is a worst case scenario, because the more the merrier. Such as it was.

Mike- the more i read your posts on this subject the more convincing you are, and i'm tending to agree with what you're saying. Especially your comment about follow the money. It's been my experience in this life that money is always at the bottom of everything that happens in this world one way or another.

Question for all; If you were the horse owner looking for a farrier for your beloved (and possibly valuable horses), what criteria would you impose on the prospective farrier ? Would you be more inclined to go with an AFA CF over a John Doe who says he knows what he's doing ?

gday mates! (lol)
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RE:Have to bring it up again 20 Jul 2005 00:25 #10

  • tbloomer
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RGXnortheast wrote:
Question for all; If you were the horse owner looking for a farrier for your beloved (and possibly valuable horses), what criteria would you impose on the prospective farrier ? Would you be more inclined to go with an AFA CF over a John Doe who says he knows what he's doing ?

gday mates! (lol)

To the average horse owner a good farrier is one that shows up on time, keeps horses sound, keeps shoes on, and returns telephone calls.

Before I went into this trade, the farrier I used had all of these qualities. He also cleaned up his mess before he left, and was gentle with my horses. His competance and qualifications never came into question. Why? Because he conducted himself like a professional. His reputation was impeccable. He was the one that suggested that I go into this trade because he was retiring.

When I started out as a farrier I decided that I would be on time for appointments, do the highest quality work I could achieve on every horse, and return telephone calls as soon as possible. I got certified. Although my skills improved due to working toward certification, it did nothing for my professional reputation.

When I get word of mouth referrals from customers, trainers, and veterinarians, they don't tell people that I'm certified. They tell people that I am very good at sticking to a schedule and that I am meticulus about the quality of my work.

I've seen farrier work by non certified farriers that was superior to the best CJF shoeing I have seen. I have seen farrier work by highly qualified CJFs that I would be ashamed to have associated with my name.

A certified farrier with a bad reputation reflects badly on the association that gave the certification. The operative word is "association." A non certified farrier with a bad reputation reflects badly on himself. In that respect there is a certian appeal to not being certified or not advertising the fact if you are.
Tom Bloomer
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302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Have to bring it up again 20 Jul 2005 00:47 #11

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tbloomer wrote:
To the average horse owner a good farrier is one that shows up on time, keeps horses sound, keeps shoes on, and returns telephone calls.

Before I went into this trade, the farrier I used had all of these qualities. He also cleaned up his mess before he left, and was gentle with my horses. His competance and qualifications never came into question. Why? Because he conducted himself like a professional. His reputation was impeccable. He was the one that suggested that I go into this trade because he was retiring.

When I started out as a farrier I decided that I would be on time for appointments, do the highest quality work I could achieve on every horse, and return telephone calls as soon as possible. I got certified. Although my skills improved due to working toward certification, it did nothing for my professional reputation.

When I get word of mouth referrals from customers, trainers, and veterinarians, they don't tell people that I'm certified. They tell people that I am very good at sticking to a schedule and that I am meticulus about the quality of my work.

I've seen farrier work by non certified farriers that was superior to the best CJF shoeing I have seen. I have seen farrier work by highly qualified CJFs that I would be ashamed to have associated with my name.

A certified farrier with a bad reputation reflects badly on the association that gave the certification. The operative word is "association." A non certified farrier with a bad reputation reflects badly on himself. In that respect there is a certian appeal to not being certified or not advertising the fact if you are.

Excellent!
I could not have said that better myself. I whole heartedly agree with you.
I too am AFA certified, and yeah I learned a bit in the process of getting certified, but it carries no weight in the real world. I am finding myself refraining from even mentioning to people that I am certified.
There are plenty of superb farriers doing some real nice horseshoeing who are not AFA certified.

In answer to my own question;
If I was looking for a farrier, and a prospective farrier said he/she was a CJF or a CF,
it would'nt amount to a hill of beans to me, because it does'nt guarantee anything.
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RE:Have to bring it up again 20 Jul 2005 05:35 #12

  • Bill Adams
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RGXnortheast wrote:
Bill- can you elaborate on how exactly regulation might cause qualified, committed farriers to give up ? I agree that requireing horse owners to have a license to own a horse might seem counterintuitive and could dissuade some potential horse owners from owning a horse. That to me is a worst case scenario, because the more the merrier. Such as it was.

There are plenty of Farriers who have many years in the art and other irons in the fire and are against the whole licence/control thing enough to say forget this ****. The craft will lose and skills won't be passed on by these folk unless its done illeagly.
As to owners, lets say you have the best CJF, FWCF, fully licenced, fees payed, shoe the horse to all the inspectors critreia. Every thing is well horse wins a roping jackpot, twelve weeks go by, heels grow over the shoes, horses steps on a rock breakes the wing on a P3. Owner's fault.

When a person has beloved, valuable horses, they probably didn't didn't just find them in the back yard. They will ask their friends with horses about the good farriers in the area. I'll bet you don't advertise, they come to you because you do their friend's horses.
I get fed up with poor shoeing I see other guys doing and most of the screw ups are done by hacks who don't care, hired by owners who only care about saving a few bucks or can get a guy to come out tomarow (every four months). Do you think that owner will say thy won't use that guy any more when Farriers have to be licenced, or the hack will sell his tools? His business will increse because the price for the licenced Farriers went way up to cover the fees.
Bill (northwest)

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Have to bring it up again 20 Jul 2005 10:37 #13

  • Mike Ferrara
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Just to clearify...I'm not against voluntary certification or contests but only laws or insurance contracts that make it a requirement. The associations can serve a very important function. Information exchange is limited by the fact that most of us work alone. Associations address that through written publications and organized functions. When I was in this business before I never bothered with the associations. This time I joined both national and state associtaion but because I recognize the value of collective buying power and the need for information exchange. I really hate to see them become political entities. It's not uncommon for such groups to act as lobby groups to protect the interests of their members but sometimes there's a fine line between the interests of the membership and the interests of the association or it's leadership.

If licensing comes about most of us will jump through whatever hoops we have to as long as we are still profitable just like we buy licenses for our trucks, pay our income taxes, property tax, sales tax, excize tax, gas tax ect. I just think, though, that it'll just be another tax and won't help any one but the tax collector and those who may provide services to the tax collector.

In my experience most people really aren't very good at what they do (it's nowhere near a bell curve) and licensing never keeps them out because you don't sell many licenses that way.
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RE:Have to bring it up again 22 Jul 2005 17:03 #14

Hey Mike, I understand what your saying when it comes to poor hoof care. The bigger problem is not the lack of good farriers it is the lack of proper horse husbandry, don't get me wrong there are allot of good horse owners that understand proper hoof care, however I do see allot that do not. No matter how many certified farriers the AFA pumps out there will always be people who do not understand the importance of at least trimming on a regular schedule. This brings up another point, as Farriers gain more experience and clientele there prices go up some guys go up just to get rid of the backyard horse owners. Some horse owners simply cannot afford the so called professional. So this creates the need and the market for new farriers, this market is a win win situation the new farrier has work so that he/she can gain experience and the backyard horse owner gets there horses feet taken care of. This really is a good process, I have allot of backyard horses that I take care of and it feels good that I can help the backyard horse owner. The more people we get into this trade that can help horse owners and educate them on proper hoof care the better. Hi shoeing prices and a fancy rig pulling into the yard scares many horse owners. You do not need a fancy rig and three initials behind your name to be a good farrier. Allot of farriers could keep there prices down if they were to manage there money better and not spend it on a truck, shoeing bodies and high priced tools. Hacks can come in all forms. How many guys buy nice equipment and trucks just to impress the barns instead of learning how to do good work and think this is how they will get the better barns? I impress many barn owners and manager simply by cleaning up after I am done. Can't tell you how many times I got business that way and compliments.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Have to bring it up again 23 Jul 2005 02:00 #15

I see three problems with licensing;

1. Enforcement, who, when and where. The cost of ?

2. A lot of horse owners will always look for the inexpensive farrier, which most of the time will mean not licensed. I don’t think enforcement will take care of this problem. Because they are not going to turn in there cheap farriers.

3. Some of the schools that call themselves “Farrier or Horse Shoeing Schools” who is going to write their programs and the length of time to get certified? Then who is going to regulate them?
Ray K. Miller, Jr. // Retired Farrier
Miller Land & LiveStock, Co. LLC
Equine Management Services, Inc.
www.raymiller.ws
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“When buying a horse or taking a wife shut your eyes tight and commend your soul to God.” Old...
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