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TOPIC: Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves

Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 25 Sep 2011 04:21 #1

  • Anthony_Lawrence
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Some recent research from down here in the antipodes (University of Auckland) suggests that wedging laminitics increases load on dorsal laminae...

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=18869

...and seems to promulgate the idea of our old friend the 0 degree palmar angle.

Although the hypothesis is fairly intuitive to me and I've never wedged any of my cases (but not saying I would never do it), I have reservations about this study.

1/ It is model based

2/ I have trouble accepting that 0 degree palmar angle would be optimum for a laminitic (or most sound horses for that matter)

3/ To me success seems to revolve around balancing the vectors acting on the pedal bone, rather than focus on one.

Thoughts?
Ant.
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 25 Sep 2011 18:10 #2

  • mwmyersdvm
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The strain that increased was at the upper portion of the hoof wall and decreased at the lower end. They may have misinterpretted their data. The laminae tend to tear from distally to proximally not the other direction. This could interpret as beneficial rather than a problem.

Strain measures deformation of the exterior hoof wall and not the stress on the laminae themselves. Measuring the external strain on the hoof wall may not directly correlate with the inner forces acting within the hoof capsule.

M. W. Myers, DVM
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 25 Sep 2011 21:29 #3

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The strain that increased was at the upper portion of the hoof wall and decreased at the lower end. Since laminae tend to tear from distally to proximally I am not sure their model is correct. There are also hydraulic forces within the hoof capsule that enter into the equation and doppler ultrasound measurements as well as venogram images show that elevating angles tends to increase perfusion into the hoof while low and especially negative angles decrease this perfusion. This would indicate the hoof is benefitted by increased hoof angles (to a point).

An interesting study, but there are many questions to consider and it contradicts live models from some differing studies.

Once you have put a number of acutely laminitic horses into heel elevation and noted how much more comfortable the horse becomes in short order, this study appears to have a flaw in it somewhere.

Aligning the pastern axis is usually the best first step. Most laminitic horses tend to do this if you note their radiographs. If they have a long low pastern axis they will have a lower palmar angle. Conversely, the upright horse will raise his palmar angle for comfort.

M. W. Myers, DVM
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 26 Sep 2011 00:35 #4

  • Katy Watts
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
Once you have put a number of acutely laminitic horses into heel elevation and noted how much more comfortable the horse becomes in short order, this study appears to have a flaw in it somewhere.

Yes. Academic researchers tend to use deductive reasoning. But us field practitioners start with the patient, and use inductive reasoning. We need to get more academics outside working in a clinical setting.

I like what my farriers have done. Put a wedge under loose, and see if the horse likes putting its weight on it. If they sigh, lick their lips and stand on it, they like it.
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 26 Sep 2011 06:48 #5

I have a dear friend who tries to convince me of finding more scientific proof for what I'm doing. What he fails to see are the limitations of deductive reasoning. As a lawyer you get trained to see exactly that. :D

I like to make this clear.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 28 Sep 2011 00:38 #6

  • Jaye Perry
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
I have a dear friend who tries to convince me of finding more scientific proof for what I'm doing. What he fails to see are the limitations of deductive reasoning. As a lawyer you get trained to see exactly that. :D

I like to make this clear.


Ronald Aalders


Wedging can cause more damage than relief. Just an FYI. Your doing 15 years of laminitis protocol with one methodology. Be "Logical counsel"; read the laminanae or fine print........:rolleyes::eek: :cool:
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 28 Sep 2011 06:47 #7

Jaye Perry wrote:
Wedging can cause more damage than relief. Just an FYI. Your doing 15 years of laminitis protocol with one methodology. Be "Logical counsel"; read the laminanae or fine print........:rolleyes::eek: :cool:


Not entirely true ;) There are laminitic cases where I do not raise heels, I've been known to use the Steward clog as well, especially in sinker cases. (Cases that I have not been too succesful, with a few exceptions.)


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 29 Sep 2011 07:52 #8

Considering findings by Pat O'reilly regarding increased pressure under the tip of P3 after raising heels -if I'm not mistaken findings prior to this research result from NZ- I have a theory as to why this could be. There must be someting wrong, because my in field experiences give me overwhelming proof raising heels is a relief on laminitic horses.

When heels are raised without lowering heels, thus lengthening the support length, a wedge will only result in rotational force that is counteracted by the DDFT. This DDFT pull, desperately needed not to have the toe flip up, will increase pressure underneath the tip of P3 as measured by Pat for one.

Ronald Aalders
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 30 Sep 2011 11:30 #9

  • reillyshoe
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I think it is possible that the effect of wedging a foot is not constant. I think one might observe some effects which last a few days, but the tendon/ligament/musculature might adjust to the "new" hoof position with time and new effects might occur.
P
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 02 Oct 2011 21:43 #10

  • Jaye Perry
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reillyshoe wrote:
I think it is possible that the effect of wedging a foot is not constant. I think one might observe some effects which last a few days, but the tendon/ligament/musculature might adjust to the "new" hoof position with time and new effects might occur.


Yes, that is why I check my laminanies every 3 days....that is from "Years" of emprical experiences.:cool:
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 03 Oct 2011 06:45 #11

What keeps surprising me, shoeing laminitic horses for a long time now, is that good results are claimed by other -well respected!- shoers as well, using protocols that actually contradict the way I shoe most laminitic horses.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 03 Oct 2011 23:02 #12

  • brian robertson
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those laminitic horses, occaisionally die, no matter what we do or live in spite of what we don't do... I just hate them sometimes; they can just s u c k the heart right out of me
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 04 Oct 2011 07:41 #13

That's my point Brian, I guess we can consider ourselves pretty well informed where laminitis is concerned. But our protocols may differ big time. We've all had our successes and our failures as well. For all of us however the successes vastly outnumber the failures, or we would have changed our protocol, right? That goes for you, for Pat, Jaye and others as well.

So how is it possible that our protocols can differ? Looking at what I know of Pat's work I clearly see common ground in our approach, only our devices that provide the mechanics differ. But I have seen work by other great farriers that simply contradict theories that I made, theories on why what I do seems to work. How can that be?

If there is any field where we are all stubling in the dark it's laminitis. And with all respect to researchers doing their thing, we farriers and only we keep the frontline. It's our heart that breaks when we work on a horse that, despite the pain, does everything it can to facilitate you in doing what you think helps it, just to see it sink and rip it's soles apart in weeks anyway. Only a farrier standing close to a horse can feel how big the effort is the horse has to put in just to hold up its leg simply because you ask him to. And only a farrier can feel the difference between a horse that because of the pain fights you, and one that despite the pain tries to work with you.

I sometimes wonder that we as farriers and vets "in the field" should take more time in stepping up and presenting our findings on why our approaches work and in which cases they did not work, in stead of running from one cripple to another. I'm positive that this would provide a more productive research environment for all those great research institutions around the world.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 04 Oct 2011 19:16 #14

  • Anthony_Lawrence
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
That's my point Brian, I guess we can consider ourselves pretty well informed where laminitis is concerned. But our protocols may differ big time. We've all had our successes and our failures as well. For all of us however the successes vastly outnumber the failures, or we would have changed our protocol, right? That goes for you, for Pat, Jaye and others as well.

So how is it possible that our protocols can differ? Looking at what I know of Pat's work I clearly see common ground in our approach, only our devices that provide the mechanics differ. But I have seen work by other great farriers that simply contradict theories that I made, theories on why what I do seems to work. How can that be?

If there is any field where we are all stubling in the dark it's laminitis. And with all respect to researchers doing their thing, we farriers and only we keep the frontline. It's our heart that breaks when we work on a horse that, despite the pain, does everything it can to facilitate you in doing what you think helps it, just to see it sink and rip it's soles apart in weeks anyway. Only a farrier standing close to a horse can feel how big the effort is the horse has to put in just to hold up its leg simply because you ask him to. And only a farrier can feel the difference between a horse that because of the pain fights you, and one that despite the pain tries to work with you.

I sometimes wonder that we as farriers and vets "in the field" should take more time in stepping up and presenting our findings on why our approaches work and in which cases they did not work, in stead of running from one cripple to another. I'm positive that this would provide a more productive research environment for all those great research institutions around the world.


Ronald Aalders

Great post Ron.
Ant.
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RE:Palmar Angles' Effect on Laminitic Horse Hooves 04 Oct 2011 21:04 #15

  • Gary Hill
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Totally agree with what you said Ron, but sometimes a blind squirrel finds a nut...I think that if you are a concerned Farrier, you will notice all the differant things that go on with laminitics and make adjustments as you see fit to do in the field?
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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