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TOPIC: Why did this farrier do this?

RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 12:41 #76

  • Ray_Knightley
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Sure would be nice to see some better Pictures from the side on view ,clear and clean hooves .....
I would say the shoe would have met the toe before the conservative resection,and float .....

Also I have seen some in the best High tec shoeing ever that have gone down hill ,and many where near to nothing or against the state of art shoeing that have saved the horse without problems..

Laminitis sadly is not a condition that is Undercontrol ...if it was then there would be one cure for all method...
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 13:34 #77

  • reillyshoe
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MPLdyCop wrote:
In terms of how I "like" to see laminitic horses treated..........

I'd be a Redden fan over a Chapman fan. The farrier I apprentice with (when he has the time now it seems :() is a Chapman fan. So we don't agree on the treatment methods for laminitis.


Kim,
I debated about sending this privately, but I think there enough other people who could stand to read this (owners and farriers and vets) so I apologize if this offends you. I remember starting out in this business expecting to set the world on fire. I remember thinking that obvious answers seemed to elude accomplished farriers. Guess what? I was wrong. Shoeing is like golf- anyone can trim a foot on day one, but you spend your entire life trying to become really good. Farriery has been around for a long time, and most things have been tried before. Rick and Ron and Smitty have cautioned you to listen more and to ask more questions. They are giving you very good advice.

In this country, starting out as a farrier is very difficult. You are not properly trained, but you think that you are ready. The question you should be asking is WHY Redden and Chapman can be so successful with such different approaches. If you prefer Redden's approach you should be reading everything you can about Chapman and heart bar shoes to gain a better understanding of what they believe. Making a statement about which methodology is better without working on a laminitic horse is ignorant.

It is easier for many young farriers to pick a side and develop opinions early. There are clients who need to hear "right" and "wrong", and you will not instill confidence giving them the honest answer- I don't know. You might choose that approach in the barn aisle, but I would avoid it on this site. Smitty has trained more apprentices than you have shod horses. If he suggests you do not know how to make a shoe I would not get defensive, I would ask him for help.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, and I am very familiar with the learning curve associated with this profession. At this point, you have not yet figured out the right questions to ask (much less the answers). I would recommend against picking one style of shoeing over another at this point of your training, much less publishing the answer on the Internet.
P
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 13:34 #78

Ronald Aalders wrote:
I think what Rick was politely trying to bring to your attention is that learning to be a farrier doesn't take years, it takes decades. And its not just "researching and reading" either. You also need to devellop feeling, feeling for the horse, the work and your own body as well. If you would have walked that road, like Rick and a lot of other shoers on this board have, you would have at least been a little humbled by it.

The fact that you obviously are not, but continue to "state my opinions to be debated" makes me think of my new puppy barking his head off at some colt, and running away fast as soon as the colt starts paying attention to him.

I agree with Rick, just sit back and pay attention, the worst that can happen that way is that you will end up with arguments pro or con the different ways to help treat laminitis.


Ronald Aalders


I disagree. I see no reason why lay people or newbies should not have strong opinions on the most difficult cases. And the internet is a very usefull "research" tool.

I am in a similar position myself. In my town crime has been rising. I think the local police force is doing a poor job. So I spent quite a bit of time on internet researching different theories of policing a community and thanks to the video sites I have watched most of the police shows and I have even read tons of police novels. Armed with my research I have started a branch of the guardian angels (a well known vigilante organization) in my town. We love the red berets and red shirts with the angel wings and we are out policing the town. For some unknown reason the local police are not supportive. They seem to feel that the training they have gone thru combined with years of continuing education and just plain decades of "street time" put them in a better position than my angels. Go figure? I am very puzzled at their reaction.
Hernando Alonzo
Certified Professional Farrier

"When all has been said and done...... usually much more has been said than done. "
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 13:36 #79

  • Travis Reed
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Eric Russell wrote:
Leave your husband out of this.

That is damn funny and I bet my last dollar it has a ton of truth to it...or if it had the word EX in front of it.......lol
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 13:58 #80

  • Travis Reed
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Hernado Not to get off topic but that is like compairing apples and coconuts.....and taking the law in ur own hands is agianst the law....you handle those type of things thru politics...run for office or mayor of ur town ....you don't have arrest power so ur kinda stuck to helping little ladys cross the street......but its a great way for kim to compair she has arrest powers and Apost cert and I'm guessing with all her training does she think a person that read a book is ready to kick a door in on a local crack house or read a book is one ready to shut down a meth lab....for a farrier with not much training would be like a a person off the street comming in and telling the swat team how to raid a meth lab....
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 14:18 #81

  • david a hall
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everypersonisahorsetoo wrote:
I disagree. I see no reason why lay people or newbies should not have strong opinions on the most difficult cases. And the internet is a very usefull "research" tool.

I am in a similar position myself. In my town crime has been rising. I think the local police force is doing a poor job. So I spent quite a bit of time on internet researching different theories of policing a community and thanks to the video sites I have watched most of the police shows and I have even read tons of police novels. Armed with my research I have started a branch of the guardian angels (a well known vigilante organization) in my town. We love the red berets and red shirts with the angel wings and we are out policing the town. For some unknown reason the local police are not supportive. They seem to feel that the training they have gone thru combined with years of continuing education and just plain decades of "street time" put them in a better position than my angels. Go figure? I am very puzzled at their reaction.
You and I would not get on :D I will ignore your red beret stuff as i think that is weird. The comments you have made are from someone who has never or infrequently have had to fix a laminitic, the shear frustration of watching it free fall through the sole, The judgment call you have to make with your treatment plan, when you have used your best skills and knowledge and the horse has continued to founder and your shoeing rationalle has then had consequences that have further progressed the condition and you blame yourself for making the horse worse. I applaud anyone who tries to educate themselves, I know because i try. but when you have had it go wrong you will grow up and salute those who's skills are beyond your own.
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 15:19 #82

  • Rick Burten
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Bravo!, David and Travis. Well said!!
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 15:58 #83

  • david a hall
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It looks from the x-ray like it had a bout of laminitis back last year, certainly in one foot if not both. if they were taken in march then im guessing Aug or sept?
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 17:34 #84

  • Rolltoptx
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david a hall wrote:
It looks from the x-ray like it had a bout of laminitis back last year, certainly in one foot if not both. if they were taken in march then im guessing Aug or sept?

She came to my barn in September and she had a lot of bruising from rocky terrain from her last facility so I do think that was a laminitic episode then as well.
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 17:35 #85

  • Jay Mickle
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Pat,
Thanks for reposting your graph. I had looked for it without success. Quite appropriate.
Jay Mickle
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 18:38 #86

  • reillyshoe
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Rolltoptx wrote:
She came to my barn in September and she had a lot of bruising from rocky terrain from her last facility so I do think that was a laminitic episode then as well.

Perhaps I missed this, but is the horse still in your barn? Also, to ask again, don't you think the boots affect the breakover position? I would think as long as the shoe is not an extension the limiting factor is determining breakover location would be the boot. Has the vet taken a radiograph with both the shoe and the boot on the hoof?
P
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 18:47 #87

  • MPLdyCop
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Just some quick answers.

I don't feel it was inappropriate to state my newly formed opinions as someone would come along and disagree or expand upon them.

I am currently watching my farrier treat a laminitic horse using Chapman's methods and it's going down hill. Maybe Chapman's methods would still work on this horse with some minor changes.... I don't know. I like Redden's approach because of the BO, and relief on the DFT.

My opinion on the "Guardian Angel" thing is that it's fine to bring up ideas to the local police, but not to try and enforce the law. Watch dog type deal in effect puts more eyes out there and can be good. But a watch dog sees what's going on and alerts not acts.

I learned best all throughout my life by presenting things the way I saw it and it being debated or expanded upon,,,,,,,,,,, and yes quite frequently being told "No, that's not right."

Personal opinion on this matter is that the far more experienced on here do not feel I've earned the right to state an opinion. Dispite the fact that I have never argued with anyone trying to say what I thought was right and that they were wrong.
Kim Turner

www.totalhorsecare.net



Dr. House "You were right, Counts for nothing if you can't defend it."
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 19:09 #88

MPLdyCop wrote:
I am currently watching my farrier treat a laminitic horse using Chapman's methods and it's going down hill. Maybe Chapman's methods would still work on this horse with some minor changes.... I don't know. I like Redden's approach because of the BO, and relief on the DFT.


If DDFT pull is so important, how do you explain a sinker? No rotation at all.......

Like I said, you're welcome to an opinion but is doesn't mean anything without the why.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 19:10 #89

  • david a hall
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MPLdyCop wrote:
Just some quick answers.

I don't feel it was inappropriate to state my newly formed opinions as someone would come along and disagree or expand upon them.

I am currently watching my farrier treat a laminitic horse using Chapman's methods and it's going down hill. Maybe Chapman's methods would still work on this horse with some minor changes.... I don't know. I like Redden's approach because of the BO, and relief on the DFT.

My opinion on the "Guardian Angel" thing is that it's fine to bring up ideas to the local police, but not to try and enforce the law. Watch dog type deal in effect puts more eyes out there and can be good. But a watch dog sees what's going on and alerts not acts.

I learned best all throughout my life by presenting things the way I saw it and it being debated or expanded upon,,,,,,,,,,, and yes quite frequently being told "No, that's not right."

Personal opinion on this matter is that the far more experienced on here do not feel I've earned the right to state an opinion. Dispite the fact that I have never argued with anyone trying to say what I thought was right and that they were wrong.
What i'm saying is after 30 years i cant be sure you are right. Do you take this attitude to work with you?
It may be your internet persona but i think that i would struggle to train you.
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RE:Why did this farrier do this? 30 May 2011 19:21 #90

MPLdyCop wrote:
Personal opinion on this matter is that the far more experienced on here do not feel I've earned the right to state an opinion. Dispite the fact that I have never argued with anyone trying to say what I thought was right and that they were wrong.


I don't think you should take it that way. Some of the comments -mine for one- have a background in frustration as well. A lot of the shoers on this board I've known for years, some I even met. We know all the theories, and tried them all. But we know -as only dedicated shoers will find out- that there is not one answer in laminitis.

I work with laminitic horses following a protocol I explained several times on this board. That protocol would put me in the Redden camp, if such camps existed. But I have had several cases where I couldn't do anything right. Whatever I did the horse went from sore to a crescent shaped hole in its foot in a matter of weeks.

As soon as you sense the frustration in having to say that I use a protocol because so far it has given me the best results, you may understand the responses. I'm sorry about the "shoulder", but please don't take it personally.


Ronald Aalders
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