Rolltoptx wrote:
Interested on what medication and why?

Looks to me like every one has been playing catch up with this horse, with the good clinical history and regular x-rays im not sure how that has happened. Even a visual exam would of been sufficient to see that toe needed to be hacked off. That can be debated for many more pages. But the fact remains that the horse is in the predicament it is. The tip off p3 must be poking into the sole so almost couldn't be sound. Please tell me this horse isn't out in a paddock walking around, that capsule is way to unstable for that. and no amount of correction will be effective until some stability is restored. Personally at 21 years of age and metabolic considerations the prognosis is very poor. I would say that those feet have fallen over the edge and unless you have some very skilled clinicians and a lot of luck the condition will continue to progress.

I know I'm a little green, so could someone explain why we are all worried about breakover, and not worried about the 3mm or less of sole under the tip of p3?

The medication we are giving her is Cimetidine.. its an ulcer medication that has antihistamine properties. Not a usual founder medication but it has helped her comfort significantly.

She is still being turned out because she is EXTREMELY buddy sour. The other horses were left out last night but I brought the mare and her buddy in. Although the mare was content the buddy was not and was very angry that she wasn't out with the other horses. If we turned out the buddy and left the mare in, she would go insane and make things worse.... The mare also never lays down (oddly enough).

David - between March and May 23 she was stable. However, around the first or second week in May the owner decided that since it was warm enough that the grazing muzzle could come off (I did not agree but its her horse). She was also out of meds at this point and decided not to get more. This combined with the lack of break over is whats caused this latest attack. She's done everything she was told by the vet (with the exception of taking the grazing muzzle off).


Chad- Yes we are VERY concerned with the sole depth and break over. The last time the farrier was out, we were supposed to FINALLY address the break over (the first time in the 4 month ordeal) but he still didn't do all that he could for the break over. The mare has gone down hill since the farrier on Friday and is crippled today.

Rolltoptx wrote:
Sounds like a managerial problem.


Just out of curiosity, where do you think breakover should be on this horse?

Roll top are you and this owner so vain and hell bent on being right that ..you say the horse ran out of meds and was to be in a muzzle....... the horses meds where stoped and the grazing muzzle was taken off and you wanna throw in oh and the brk over was not right......who ever come up with pulling muzzle off and not filling meds is the only one in the whole deal should carry any blame at all....all partys involved have givein they all for this horse and it was all for no good reason if the owners and trainers can't do one simple part......do the farrier a favor and fire him and do the horse a favor and put it down.... if you say you knew better than pulling off the muzzle off then you would have ask th e horse be loaded up and carried to a farm where sitting and watching a horse suffer is ok..

This is a high scale laminitic case and $200 per month, minimal medication and a pair of heartbars with pasture turnout cannot be expected to treat this situation. I am getting the impression that the veterinarian and farrier are restricted in what they might be allowed to do for this case, so they are trying minimal techniques in the hopes that the mare can assist.
If you want the horse repaired, she should be shipped to an equine hospital that deals with these cases regularly. Redden has one in Kentucky, Reilly has one in Pennsylvania, and Floyd has one in Virginia. There are others across the country.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

Rolltoptx wrote:Perhaps that's because she also has ulcers????Since the owner doesn't want to provide properly fro the horse, perhahps it is indeed best to euthanize the horse. Who says the breakover location has anything to do with the latest episode?

Me thinks that there is some serious CYOAF going on right now.Really? How about stopping her meds?You still giving her grain and letting her graze?

I have been following this thread for a bit and thought I would chime in, seeing as how I was in a similar situation not that long ago.(Keep in mind that I know just enough, to know that I have just barely scratched the surface. ) But from what I can gather the horse was OK for a while and then started to go down hill. And while the said lack of B/O is being targeted as the main culprit, the horse husbandry (or lack there of, ie; taking grazing muzzle off, and taking off meds) seems to me a much more likely cause!!

I can empathize with the farrier. I don't know why he chose the shoeing protocol that he did. I do know that founder and laminitis can be tricky. You can have theory's and speculations and "some farrier training" but sometimes all that will get thrown out the window because the horse your working on didn't read that theory or protocol.
Awhile ago I took over shoeing a foundered pony who was in pretty bad shape. Long story short in four months got her sound at a walk, trot, canter. Just before they were to get the go ahead to start working her again, they decided to turn her out on very lush green grass for a few hours a day for a few days in a row. (She wasn't to have any grass and had been off it for a year) They were content in their ignorance, content to watch their pony barely able to move. Although the pony is doing well now, I was still very frustrated because the owners kept just saying that she was having a "flare up". Not re foundering due to grass and that I just happened to be working on her when she was having a "good spell". Thankfully the vet was in my corner and set them straight. Kinda drives home the feeling though when the horse is lame blame the farrier, when sound thank everyone but. :rolleyes:LOL

I am sorry I didn't mean to rant. To the OP I hope you and your customer can get this sorted and get the horse going down the right path. Maybe a re think about some of the decisions that have been made in this case is in order?

chad rice wrote:Chad,

Way back at post #21 I said: "From the rads, right now it appears that she is trying to punch the coffin bone out the bottom so until that is dealt with/stabilized, the horse is at high risk."

Sorry Rick, I guess I missed that, didn't mean to steal your thunder.... I guess great minds think alike.

chad rice wrote:No worries, Chad. I don't have any thunder to steal. And you are indeed correct about great minds.

chad rice wrote:
I guess if I was working on a horse in this condition and knew he was going to be turned out I would want breakover pretty close to the tip of p3.

That's just 1 of numerous things I would think need to happen and I don't think it's anywhere close to being as important as some of the other issues that need to be addressed.

Rolltoptx wrote:
Not knowing the situation I do agree with your thoughts as far as the shoeing is concerned. I know guy that did this once just because he didn't agree with the vet. I can't say that's the case here, but I've known it to happen. As far as deliberate "floating" it doesn't take more than 1/8"-3/16" to achieve that.

I will say someone needs to have a serious "come to Jesus" with the owner and stop giving this horse turnout on anything but barren drylot or an arena/roundpen without ANY grass or weeds for this mare to get into. Without such a meeting I wouldn't even consider trying to help an owner llike that.

I would have a metabolic horse in a stall with nothing but a controlled starch forage/feed and hand walking. I don't know where you are but in the Houston area we have a bagged hay available with a tested/certified low starch content for around $15 for a 50# bag.

chad rice wrote:
I also expressed concern over how or if any derotation attempts were made.

I may not have treated a laminitic horse yet, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.