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TOPIC: navicular

RE:navicular 01 Apr 2011 16:05 #196

  • Ray_Knightley
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owen charles wrote:
Who might those best be Ray ? & where do you sit among them ? I might wont some pointers from you.

I am nowhere near to the half of the standard I would like to reach in my work after 24 Years ,main reason is being able to see here what goes on world wide .
I shoe average of 8 aday and try and do each on better than last :)

But you can make some comment on what I do I an outside all day with my iPhone and not hiding behind my Pc ....

Now kebab and then home to our new shetties will try and post some pictures of our new stoke:D
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RE:navicular 01 Apr 2011 19:20 #197

  • Rick Burten
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owen charles wrote:
I'm not sure but I think I nailed that on.
Now there's something to be right proud of. :rolleyes:
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:navicular 01 Apr 2011 20:28 #198

DeniseMc wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out. As Bloomer mentioned it would be interesting to know if that is an average number generated from lots of data points or if it's someone's ideal normal.

I'm pretty sure I read in the documentation that it was an average from a LOT of horses. but, it's been about 8 years since I installed the software and that computer is long gone, so I can't check the docs for sure.
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:navicular 01 Apr 2011 20:56 #199

  • Jack Evers
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owen charles wrote:
The 12.5 -15 was for fronts average around 15 . hinds 18-20 degrees. average around 20. like I said you need to learn how to trim a foot properly or you will have a lot of the horses your trimming & shoeing ending up with navicular . from leaving to much toe & sole on & having them laid back on there heels.

I'm sort of curious how a range of values 15 and smaller or 20 and smaller can average at the high end of the range, but I guess with this guy anything is possible. a+b = 2b even if a is smaller than b. WOW!!I can always learn something.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:navicular 01 Apr 2011 21:10 #200

  • mwmyersdvm
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The current Metron software lists the average hairline angle for all horses measured ranged between 18 and 26 degrees. This was for front and hind. There are a couple of problems with this measurement. Metron uses four points on the hairline to locate this 'line' for the program. Then it uses only the second to last line to compute this angle. So a fairly straight hairline would be accurate while a greatly curved one would be 'measured' but would have little overall meaning in the data. It also does not make sense to have the same hairline angle for two sets of hooves that do not usually have the same hoof angle or palmar/plantar angle.

Before you take a 'fact' at 'reported researched value' it still has to make sense. There are a number conclusions drawn from research that upon review can reveal that there were a number of flaws in the study that was done.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:navicular 01 Apr 2011 21:24 #201

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
The current Metron software lists the average hairline angle for all horses measured ranged between 18 and 26 degrees. This was for front and hind. There are a couple of problems with this measurement. Metron uses four points on the hairline to locate this 'line' for the program. Then it uses only the second to last line to compute this angle. So a fairly straight hairline would be accurate while a greatly curved one would be 'measured' but would have little overall meaning in the data. It also does not make sense to have the same hairline angle for two sets of hooves that do not usually have the same hoof angle or palmar/plantar angle.

Before you take a 'fact' at 'reported researched value' it still has to make sense. There are a number conclusions drawn from research that upon review can reveal that there were a number of flaws in the study that was done.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

Metron lists the range of horses in YOUR database. The "rules" can be altered as you like, depending on your preferences. The software is not statig this to be ideal. The more horses you put in your database, the more the rage is likely to increase, and you can easily separate front and hind limbs.
P
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RE:navicular 01 Apr 2011 21:44 #202

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reillyshoe wrote:
Metron lists the range of horses in YOUR database. The "rules" can be altered as you like, depending on your preferences. The software is not statig this to be ideal. The more horses you put in your database, the more the rage is likely to increase, and you can easily separate front and hind limbs.

In the Metron default database there is a range installed in the original software. It can be editted for the ranges seen by the user if desired. I only have one hoof photograph measured in my curent database and it falls outside the range stated in the charts provided. I called Metron support to determine if my original statement was correct and they verified that there is a baseline that was seen by John Craig in his initial programming of the software. I have not editted this original data so this is what he found in his original work.

I checked the range for 'all feet' on 'all horses', then 'hind feet' on 'all horses' and finally 'front feet' on 'all horses'. The 18 to 26 figure came up on all values listed. Not stating it is right or wrong, just that I question it and that it would make more sense for the values to differ slightly between front and hind hooves.

As for how the angle is calculated, the support staff recommended I contact John Craig and report my findings as well as the ambiguity of the measuring system so that it can be improved.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:navicular 01 Apr 2011 21:53 #203

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Depending on how you set it up, it will look in the default horses, but these are not "ideal". The hairline angle measures two points and the angle relative to the ground- the coronet at the heels and the coronet at the toe. The hairline distortion is not considered (to my understanding).
P
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RE:navicular 01 Apr 2011 22:05 #204

  • owen charles
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One of the greatest Flaws with any of theses kinds of studies is age is not taken in to account nor is breed or conformation.
Example a thoroughbred will have a differing stance to that of a standard breed due to differences in length of back & wither.
Example In a young horses the rear end develops faster then the front end. meaning the point of the group & loins will be at growing stages higher then the wither.
Example the horses has not fully developed growing till the horse receives all it full set of permanent teeth. Bone structure ,density of bone structure . hoof size extra.
Clydesdale & other heavy horse can take up to 7 years & in some cases 9 years to finish developing.
Example. Arabs tend to have a boxed hoof & a more up right hoof wall.
The list goes on .


.
Owen Charles McLaren
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RE:navicular 02 Apr 2011 11:19 #205

  • tbloomer
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Jack Evers wrote:
. . . a+b = 2b even if a is smaller than b.
BUT ONLY when applied to clear span coronary truss systems on sloping ground. ;)
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:navicular 02 Apr 2011 14:29 #206

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tbloomer wrote:
BUT ONLY when applied to clear span coronary truss systems on sloping ground. ;)
[/QUOTE]
Mark your outer circular in degrees .
Owen Charles McLaren
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RE:navicular 02 Apr 2011 19:38 #207

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reillyshoe wrote:
Depending on how you set it up, it will look in the default horses, but these are not "ideal". The hairline angle measures two points and the angle relative to the ground- the coronet at the heels and the coronet at the toe. The hairline distortion is not considered (to my understanding).

I have attached an image of how it is done on my system. It appears to be using the middle line in a curved hairline and not the front to rear average or straight line.

I do agree that the ranges were not 'ideal', but they were the horses John Craig saw in his field observations and measurements.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=562&pictureid=5271
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RE:navicular 02 Apr 2011 19:41 #208

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owen charles wrote:
Mark your outer circular in degrees .
Why? What's in it for me?
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:navicular 02 Apr 2011 19:54 #209

  • david a hall
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
I have attached an image of how it is done on my system. It appears to be using the middle line in a curved hairline and not the front to rear average or straight line.

I do agree that the ranges were not 'ideal', but they were the horses John Craig saw in his field observations and measurements.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=562&pictureid=5271

Im guessing because it is a 2d image of a 3d object, any angle reading is going to be incorrect.
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RE:navicular 02 Apr 2011 20:16 #210

  • owen charles
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tbloomer wrote:
Why? What's in it for me?
Well nothing really other then it giving your sketches a bit more scope on coronet angle in relation to toe & sole .
Owen Charles McLaren
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