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TOPIC: thinning the dorsal wall info?

RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 03:31 #31

  • tbloomer
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reillyshoe wrote:
Let me ask this as a rhetorical question- if a 1000 lb horse loaded its weight on a thin walled hoof, would you expect more sole pressure than if the same horse had a very thick hoofwall? Why (or not)? Can our actions as farriers affect this outcome? Can we increase this force, and (if so) could the opposite action decrease it?

If I take the extreme example, would a total hoofwall resection increase the loading of the sole under P3?
If there is nothing under the sole to push against it, then the "pressure" on P3 comes from where?
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 03:35 #32

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All things being the same, it shows the hoof is behaving to force in a different manner. It is not to say that the force cannot be overcome, merely that there is a different force to consider.
P
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 09:41 #33

  • British Matt
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I don't see a lot of laminitics luckily, maybe got 3 chronics on my books and get a couple acute ones each year.

I figure that new growth follows old, so I always dress the toe back. I have often though about the effects this has on destabilising the capsule, but figure if you replace the support with some IM or a HB then you negate these effects. Without providing additional support I think you only have to think of the hoof capsule as a hinge to realise that there will be more heel expansion and sole drop when the limb is loaded.

Just my opinion of course :)
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 10:36 #34

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I have Seen more cases Messed up by people over working the Hoof ,than cases that have just Been neglected ,Funny the neglected ones seem to get by well for some reason and After a few trims ,Must say These ones are smaller Animals Standing in mud/muck soft Ground .

Those i have Seen that have grown out with hardly any Indication of One Time laminitis have Been resectioned with Sole Support .

The Rotation or founding of the Seems to Be very Little compared to how much a Hoof capsel can Migrat from the Bone .

PS They are dropping like flys here the last week about 7 cases ,The horses have not been moving because of the weather and the owners have feeding as a new Hobby,talking to other farriers /vets they have the same thing going on....sad case really ..education is needed ,also the hay we have here is used to give the horses something to do and that Hay is as good as hard feed in some barns here.
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 12:12 #35

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reillyshoe wrote:
All things being the same, it shows the hoof is behaving to force in a different manner. It is not to say that the force cannot be overcome, merely that there is a different force to consider.
Since the lamina holding the toe were already compromised. Do you think that change measured in your experiment had to do with the wall on each side of the toe spreading slightly allowing P3 to descend? IMO, this is the most logical explanation.
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 12:36 #36

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reillyshoe wrote:
Let me ask this as a rhetorical question- if a 1000 lb horse loaded its weight on a thin walled hoof, would you expect more sole pressure than if the same horse had a very thick hoofwall? Why (or not)? Can our actions as farriers affect this outcome? Can we increase this force, and (if so) could the opposite action decrease it?

If I take the extreme example, would a total hoofwall resection increase the loading of the sole under P3?

With or without a shoe on? ;) At different speed the the bone will move more because more weight is on it. The thinner wall will flex more, a shoe will help decrease the amount of flexion.

I have no doubt we can reverse the action. Glue should reverse it.

I have removed the wall with a digital xray on hand. Once you remove enough wall when the foot loads you can see the wall distort forward. And on the xray you could see the bone drop.
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 13:15 #37

I'd be the last to judge those findings Pat, but I would really like to know what the mechanics behind that phenomena are. Thinning the wall (how far??) in my view should not have an effect on the downward pressure of P3, provided the wall is left rigid enough to not change shape when laminae pull at it. Are wew discussing the same thing by the way? Thinning the dorsal wall?

Your findings however show it does. Any theory why that is?

Thanks Pat,


Ronald Aalders
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 13:43 #38

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Unfortunately, this material was initially released with a conclusion stated in the title. "Adverse effect of setting the shoe back " So THAT is the "sound bite" that is circulating. It is a "detail" of how the material was introduced that is now being circulated as the "take home message."
Rick Talbert wrote:
I have not run across these farriers, but I hope that you are not insinuating that this is my mindset?

No insinuation. I caught you red handed in this thread mis-quoting me. I directly pointed to that as an example of "mind function." Something you should explore for yourself - "how do you learn?" What "message" got filed away in your brain for future reference?

Was it your deliberate intention to misquote me? Did you subliminally chop off the end of my statement and file away a conclusion different than what was presented? Did your brain pluck and file a "headline" as a complete thought, and has that had an effect on your perceptions?
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 14:20 #39

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Thinned by about this much:



I might suggest that there is no laminae strain at the toe on this horse, as the lammelar wedge is the only attachment. I would also suggest for thought that the hoof is only as strong as its weakest point. The distal hoofwall is quite thin, so perhaps that is the point of greatest flexion?
P
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 14:25 #40

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reillyshoe wrote:
The funny part is that some of the perimeter fit crowd seems to think I am supporting the ideas, and that is not the case. I am simply suggesting that hoof capsule integrity plays a part in the story and should be considered. It is an even more compelling story if there is evidence to suggest that integrity can be artificially replaced- that might allow us to have our cake and eat it too.

In the non laminitic case it's pretty obvious that reinforcing the wall would help stabilize p3 (assuming the wall was thinned down too much to support the weight)

In the laminitc case where there is no attachment, why would thickening the wall matter? If p3 isn't attached it really doesn't matter what the wall is doing.

I guess the question lies somewhere in between the two. If the attachment is compromised should we add something to the wall to reinforce it?
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 14:36 #41

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Following a resection where I rasped away the wall in the toe and exposed exposed laminar wedge horn, I've added Durasole to that area to harden it. In some cases it becomes harder than the wall and will hold nails.

Definitely off label use. But it seems to mitigate some of the lost integrity in that area. AND it is still polymer chemistry. :D
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 14:39 #42

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If nothing else, the dorsal hoof bridges the medial and lateral halves of the hoof. in a non-laminitic hoof, the regular attachment might limit deformation in any specific area. The laminitic hoof, with a compromised attachment, might be subject to concentrated bending forces. I am not pretending to understand all of the mechanical forces, that will have to wait for studies with strain gauges between P3 and the hoof...
P
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 14:47 #43

  • Rick Talbert
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tbloomer wrote:


No insinuation. I caught you red handed in this thread mis-quoting me. I directly pointed to that as an example of "mind function." Something you should explore for yourself - "how do you learn?" What "message" got filed away in your brain for future reference?

Was it your deliberate intention to misquote me? Did you subliminally chop off the end of my statement and file away a conclusion different than what was presented? Did your brain pluck and file a "headline" as a complete thought, and has that had an effect on your perceptions?
Tom, did I not already apologize to you, since you feel you were misrepresented in the quote? But since you are pushing forward, I will say that honestly I do not feel that you were "mis-quoted", your sentence was,
"It isn't the sort of thing you can analyze mechanically by isolating one part of the system from the others and then draw conclusions." Do you feel that it IS the sort of thing that CAN be analyzed mechanically by another means, and you were just specifying that it could not be analyzed in the specific way in which the information was presented?? If so, then what way do you suggest is appropriate for this sort of thing to be analyzed mechanically? Certainly it was not my deliberate intent to "mis-quote" you, I didn't realize that in reality you do have an opinion on how it can be analyzed mechanically. I am looking forward to reading this opinion, or was that what was meant by the talk of a model?? I am not sure why your so upset. Did I attribute your name to the quote?? No. I said, (If it "isn't the sort of thing that can be analyzed mechanically" then I am no worse off for asking.) Would you like me to removed the quotation marks? I would be happy to do so, as the sentence stands well on its own. The simple truth is that my intent was not to quote you, but to quote a phrase. It is done all the time.
Rick Talbert
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 15:54 #44

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Rick Talbert wrote:
Do you feel that it IS the sort of thing that CAN be analyzed mechanically by another means
Yes.
and you were just specifying that it could not be analyzed in the specific way in which the information was presented??
Yes.
If so, then what way do you suggest is appropriate for this sort of thing to be analyzed mechanically?
I think Eric Russell did a good analysis, though to complete his thoughts I would hope to see some form of reinforcement applied to the hoof in order to compare before/after to determine if the displacement was actually mitigated. Even without the complete experiment, I believe Eric's mechanical assumptions are logical.
Certainly it was not my deliberate intent to "mis-quote" you, I didn't realize that in reality you do have an opinion on how it can be analyzed mechanically. I am looking forward to reading this opinion, or was that what was meant by the talk of a model??
See above.
I am not sure why your so upset.
What have I said to make you presume that I am upset?:confused: Think about how you think. :D
Did I attribute your name to the quote?? No. I said, (If it "isn't the sort of thing that can be analyzed mechanically" then I am no worse off for asking.)
In context, I used this as an example of how one can dismiss some details and then form assumptions.
Would you like me to removed the quotation marks? I would be happy to do so, as the sentence stands well on its own. The simple truth is that my intent was not to quote you, but to quote a phrase. It is done all the time.
YES! EXACTLY! It is how the human brain works when running on "automatic." It is done all the time. It requires deliberate effort to NOT do this. For example, "The proof is in the pudding." How many times have you herd that? And how often has Rick Burten corrected that phrase to "The proof of the pudding is in the tasting?"

Our brains want to lock onto the "headlines." When this happens and the information is passed on to others, and then repeated, the context becomes diluted or changed. Often we do this without being conscious of it.
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RE:thinning the dorsal wall info? 23 Jan 2011 15:57 #45

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reillyshoe wrote:
If nothing else, the dorsal hoof bridges the medial and lateral halves of the hoof.

Pat - I'm not mathematician but the attachment at the toe seems to make up more than half of the overall attachment. You simply run out of bone on sides. I think it does a little bit more than just bridge.
that will have to wait for studies with strain gauges between P3 and the hoof...

I suspect there are far too many variables for the results of a strain gauge to matter.
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