make up natural cara make up make up tutorial make up korea make up minimalis make up artis make up mata belajar make up make up wardah alat make up makeup forever indonesia makeup artist jakarta tips make up barbie make up natural make up make up wajah make up pesta make up syahrini makeup mata makeup minimalis peralatan make up make up cantik make up mac make up kit jual make up make up sederhana perlengkapan make up gambar make up vidio make up cara makeup minimalis wardah make up make up pac make up glamour cara memakai makeup make up panggung harga make up make up modern make up alami make up dasar pixy make up make up muslimah make up oriflame make up jepang makeover cosmetic make up ultima make up sariayu grosir make up makeup fantasi makeup pesta tas makeup langkah make up make up pria make up malam alat makeup tahapan make up produk make up shading make up mak up make up kebaya make up jilbab make up inez make up simpel contoh make up cara ber makeup makeup wajah tanpa make up make up terbaru toko make up mac makeup indonesia make up soft urutan make up trik make up makeover makeup brand gusnaldi make up paket make up panduan make up jual makeup brush make up bagus alat2 make up make up gusnaldi aplikasi make up alat alat makeup dasar make up inez make up peralatan makeup make up wanita make up berjilbab make up tebal sejarah make up make up maybeline make up branded make up siang tata cara makeup reseller make up make up muslim make up maybelin warna make up tips make up artist rias make up make up mata make up artis belajar make up make up artist kursus make up kuas make up make up forever indonesia jual make up mac indonesia make up make up artist indonesia harga make up forever jual make up online make up pac make up forever jakarta make up oriflame jual make up forever make up online shop indonesia harga make up sekolah make up grosir make up harga make up maybelline jual make up murah make up terbaru mak up mac make up indonesia sofia make up make up kit murah mac makeup indonesia produk make up jual make up kit make up store indonesia make up forever academy jakarta toko make up online jual make up set jual make up mac make up beauty jual make up branded produk make up mac make up forever harga make up mac indonesia produk make up artis jual make up palette produk make up forever make up palette murah before after make up pengantin before after make up sendiri before n after hasil makeup contoh make up karakter contoh riasan pengantin before n after harga make up wisuda harga make up artist harga make up forever make up wisuda rias wisuda di jogja Daftar harga make up forever daftar harga make up mac daftar harga kosmetik make up forever makeup wisuda harga makeup wisuda kursus make up di yogyakarta kursus make up di jogja kursus make up jogja kursus make up yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di jogja kursus make up artist di jogja kursus rias pengantin di jogja kursus rias di yogyakarta kursus tata rias di yogyakarta rias pengantin muslim jogja jasa kreasi jilbab wisuda yogyakarta jasa rias make up wisuda murah bagus bisa dpanggil tempat make uf di jigja yang bagus rias wisuda murah dan berkualitas yogyakarta pakar kreasi jilbab di jogja make uper natural yogya make up wisuda hijab area jogja make up dan kreasi jilbab yang bagus di jogja jasa make up natural untuk wisuda jogja makeup jogja make up jogja makeup yogyakarta make up yogyakarta makeup wisuda jogja make up wisuda jogja make up wisuda yogyakarta makeup wisuda yogyakarta
Monday January 24, 2022
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Looking for opinions

Looking for opinions 24 Oct 2009 21:35 #1

A horse owner just called me and said that her 10 year old Arab had been diagonsed with navicular changes and some changes in his fetlock, all in the left front. Apparenty she has leased the horse out to a theraputic riding program and was vetted today by the program's veterinarian. The horse reportedly flunked the flexion test on the left front so they took xrays. The vet reccommended/prescribed barshoes and 2 degree wedge pads for the horse.

Before the flexion test the horse was sound. While, he does have a history of tripping occasionally, he had not done so since a change in farriers was made earlier this year. The horse had long low heels and long toes but has made wonderful progress in recent months with a change in trimming. He has been barefoot to date. The owner would like him to stay barefoot, unless shoes are actully in his best interest at this point to prevent further boney changes and prolong his serviceable soundness.

I know it's hard to give opinions on cases without visuals but I'm asking folks to try if you don't mind. I'm going to try to get the xrays and some photographs to post here. The owner has asked for my opinion on whether to shoe the horse or not and frankly, I do not have enough experience to give her good information to use. I'm hoping this forum might provide me with possible information to share with her so she can make the best choices for her horse. Keeping the horse sound and comfortable to prevent any further damage is important to this owner and she would like to know if shoeing will acomplish this better than barefoot.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Looking for opinions 25 Oct 2009 05:22 #2

The flexion test did not cause the lameness. The flexion test inadvertantly found a "sub-clinical lameness" that has been there for a while, if in fact bony change was evident on the radiographs....the Rx for this horse is approriate in some cases, I would add frog support (pad, impression material, etc"). Bar shoes are not always needed, an open heeled shoe fit properly, an NBS shoe (aluminum, PLR, steel) fit properly etc., all have their application for these cases. Pay particular attention to breakover and caudal support, shoe around the center of articulation. IMO, I would not keep her barefoot, there are some here who would though...:)
:cool:www.blinddogforge.com

Bob Guyon JR.
Lakeside, CA

"Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Now lets the rest of us go on to Montana." -Augustus McCrae
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Looking for opinions 26 Oct 2009 04:45 #3

Kelly
A few questions arise from what you have posted.
1. When you flex the fetlock you are also flexing the coffin joint. Only a low nerve block will determine the differential in lameness from the fetlock and coffin. If this horse has suspected navicular syndrome it could well only be the coffin joint that is making it lame.
2. Physical changes in the navicular bone are normally produced over a period of time and by the sounds of the long toe low heel conformation, that could be a cause.
3. What is the prospective use of the horse, as this will along with the radiographs will determine the shoeing protocol.

Your farrier would need to see a good set of lateral radiographs with markers to determine the HPA (hoof pastern angle) PA (palmar angle) and COA (centre of articulation)

If all the above can be achieve barefoot, then it is an option. If not and the horse needs to be actively ridden then shoes to correct the above will need to be applied
Hope this helps
Derek Poupard CJF, Dip WCF
www.quixshoe.com
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Looking for opinions 26 Oct 2009 11:42 #4

Bob and Derek, thanks for your replys.

Derek, I did not do the flexion tests, nor was I present so I do not know the answer to your first question. I have been the most recent farrier to trim this horse, trying to correct the long toe/low heel situation. When I started trimming the horse, I told the owner that we might need to shoe the horse to correct the problems. However, the foot appeared to have made good progress being trimmed and remaining barefoot.

At this time the plan for this horse it to spend the next year on lease to a theraputic riding program reportedly doing light work. The owner is working on getting the xrays so I can see them. While she is leasing the horse out it sounds like she will retain some health management input and wants to be sure they do the best for the horse.

I was concerned having the horse in bars shoes and wedge pads when there is no clinical lameness apparant. I've seen more problems created when people use any corrective shoeing in place of balanced trim. As far as I know, the vet did xrays on an untrimmed foot and I'm expecting that is why he would think wedge pads are necessary.

I know I don't have enough information or experience to help this owner make rational choices for her horse. I smell a potential learning opportunity here....if I choose to follow this case it will not likely be income producing so I'll have to learn something:rolleyes:

Does anyone have a crystal ball?....what if this flexion test was never done?...how long woud it have been before the subclinical lameness became clinical???

Thanks again for the replies. I'll take any and all education I can get. (maybe I should be careful what I wish for:confused:)
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Looking for opinions 26 Oct 2009 12:15 #5

Hi Kelly,

For starters I would get with the Veterinarian and go over the x-rays. Sounds like an opportunity to learn and build a good relationship with this Veterinarian. Good luck, if you need any help feel free to call me. I'm not too far from you. Would be nice to keep this horse sound for therapeutic riding, these type of horses are hard to come by.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Looking for opinions 27 Oct 2009 04:21 #6

Kelly,

When a veterinarian does a flexion test during a pre-purchase, lameness exam, etc., they are essentially stressing "individual" joints...the reason for the lameness, clinical or otherwise was already there in this case...
Barshoes and wedge pads are a generic, all-encompassing, standard, widely accepted Rx for "navicular" horses and in this case, possibly a good place to start...you will have to tinker with it until you come up with the right combination. IMO trimming alone does not help, especially the LT/LH types, they need to be supported caudally and breakover must be moved back. Support the back of the limb, obtaining proper breakover, etc...
:cool:www.blinddogforge.com

Bob Guyon JR.
Lakeside, CA

"Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Now lets the rest of us go on to Montana." -Augustus McCrae
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Looking for opinions 27 Oct 2009 04:55 #7

Phil Armitage wrote:
Hi Kelly,

For starters I would get with the Veterinarian and go over the x-rays. Sounds like an opportunity to learn and build a good relationship with this Veterinarian. ...

Good plan.

Julie :-)
Julie Plaster
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Looking for opinions 28 Oct 2009 23:04 #8

  • mwmyersdvm
  • mwmyersdvm's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Very Senior Member
  • Posts: 924
  • Thank you received: 11
  • Karma: 1
While 'bar shoes and wedge pads' are a 'standard prescription' for 'navicular' horses, there is an inherent problem with this sort of 'prescription'. There is no reference to where the current breakover, COA, palmar angle, etc. are located and what should be done to make an optimal correction in the trim, where the shoeing package should be attached and what angle of wedge pad is suggested. This sort of generic prescription is what farriers find objectionable since it is too little data to assist their decision and why some do not follow such a 'prescription' since a prescriptiopn of this type for medications would not be sufficient for a pharmacist to fill.

I am a bit blunt on this reply because it is one of the problems faced in veterinary and farrier communications. Shoeing may be needed on this horse, but without further information, this would be difficult to determine. One item to consider is that while this horse was making progress during the initial trimmming for correction, was the horse in work? Added work load will add stress on the hoof capsule so this is a factor to consider.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Looking for opinions 29 Oct 2009 14:45 #9

Kelly Parliman wrote:
The horse reportedly flunked the flexion test on the left front so they took xrays. The vet reccommended/prescribed barshoes and 2 degree wedge pads for the horse.

Kelly Parliman wrote:
I'm going to try to get the xrays and some photographs to post here.
Kelly,

Absent radiographs and photographs no one can give you any useful specific information.

When working on a horse for these kinds of problems the line of communication between the Vet and Farrier has to be wide open. The Rad's need to be reviewed jointly so both parties are speaking the same language and have the same reference points. Have you talked to the Vet directly, have you seen the Rad's, do you completely understand and agree that there are boney changes to the navicular bone?

I know someone is going to jump me for the agree point, but if you don't agree, you do not have a as full an understanding as the Vet or you think the Vet may have missed something you see and a conversation to reconcile any perceived difference is ethically required.

Farriers have an ethical obligation to the horse, first and foremost. So before we jump right on addressing a diagnosed lameness, we had damn sure have gotten all of our facts straight. Unlike a Pharmacist who must rely on a Doctors understanding of biology, chemistry and pharmacology for what will work we are applying an appliance that will only work if we apply if correctly and that requires that we have a higher standard of information and professional skill.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

Visit the Guild of Professional Farriers, Inc. Website

"What is popular is not always right; what is right is not always popular." Unknown

"In matters of style swim with the current; In matters of principle, stand like a...
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Looking for opinions 29 Oct 2009 23:38 #10

Dr. Meyers, thank you for your reply. I appreciate your bluntness on this matter. At least I know I wasn't totally off base by wanting more information before I confirmed the vet's reccommendation. Everything I've got for info is third party information at best.

Phil, Julie, Ron. I appreciate your feedback. I'm just going to sit tight until I see the xrays. The horse owner is still working on getting copies of the xrays. Hopefully she can get those to me fairly soon as I am curious to see what's happening inside the hoof capsule on this horse.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Kunena Birthday Module

  • alminc11 birthday is today
  • DABELL24 birthday is today
  • skelemen birthday is today
  • capvieterB8F2 birthday is in 1 day
  • mountaintrailrider birthday is in 1 day
  • sean_the_shoer birthday is in 1 day
  • sweetbranchforge birthday is in 1 day
  • technologie2A68 birthday is in 1 day
  • zaplwiecowiec8 birthday is in 1 day
  • Antionette birthday is in 2 days
  • Awilda Buentello7D5B birthday is in 2 days
  • bennyjoe@shoeforyou.com birthday is in 2 days
  • Mike Wells birthday is in 2 days
Time to create page: 0.209 seconds

S5 Box

Register

*
*
*
*
*
*

Fields marked with an asterisk (*) are required.