Hi,

A friend did a dissection on a foundered horse that had been wearing banana shoes for some time. She has given me permission to post the pictures of the foot.

I don't understand what the use of this shoe is and was hoping those who do will chime in (Ron )

The foot looks very distorted, is it that the Banana Shoe is meant for one or two applications and that is it?

I appreciate any education I can get.

Thanks

I'm not sure what information you're looking for that is not already in this board. But I'll repeat some of the high lights. A banana needs to have its roll directly below the COA. Not in front of it, not behind it. Like every shoe the banana shoe needs to be centered around the COA. 50% of the shoe in front (break over length) 50% behind (support length). I hope you can tell that in the pictures you posted caudal support is lacking. Also the foot has not been trimmed to realign P3 with the horizontal. The first step in treating founders. The banana is just a help. Like a wedge is, and a square toe. If the mechanics are not understood I would stay away from banana's. They appear simple, I think they are, but there is no telling how people get screw up using them. In this case I can not begin to understand how you can not tell your cadaver foot is not supported caudally. If that is not clear how in the world are you going to shoe or trim horses?

I added a few pics that hopefully explain a bit more, for one that you don't need a dramatic roll like in the pictures you posted to gain a mechanical advantage from a banana shoe.


Ronald Aalders

Ronald Aalders wrote:
No need to get snippy Ron. I asked questions about the foot I presented. I can see it is totally FUBAR and I for one can't understand how anyone applying that would think it was appropriate. I know you use a lot of Banana Shoes so was hoping for some sort of explanation. Of course you didn't apply that, so I am not blaming you, just attempting to understand the logic behind something that seems illogical.

I did not say I think the foot is shod correctly and I do understand biomechanics, we just trying to learn a little more.

So what is the POINT of a banana shoe? Why would I use it instead of another orthotic?

Simply because there is no other type of shoe that can reduce DDFT pull of a retracted leg at the time of heel lift as dramatically and efficiently as a banana shoe can. Also a banana properly applied allows a horse to as Redden puts it "self addjust its palmar angle". I prefer to explain a horse has less trouble finding the sweet spot where tendons and other structures of the foot are as comfortable as possible.


Ronald Aalders

p.s. some links: http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8490&highlight=banana http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4730&highlight=banana

Ronald Aalders wrote:
Thanks for the links Ron. Is this a therapeutic only shoe and would the horse be in confinement during the course of the shoeing application. As asked originally, what is the normal length of time this shoe would be applied continuously to a horse?

I know if I had to stand on something like that it would cause stress to my tendons. But maybe I shouldn't be making analogies between humans/horses

irishcas wrote:Obviously I'm not Ron( I'm far better looking with a full head of hair ), however, depending on your definition of 'therapeutic' I would say, yes, it is indeed a therapeutic shoe. As for confinement over the course of use, no, horses continue to be active and do their job(s).You're gonna hate me, but, "It Depends". Put another way, as long as the horse needs them...... You may have to re-think your opinion. Check out: http://us.mbt.com/Home/Benefits.aspx

I just got a pair of these(the lower, modified banana) and they are wonderful. They do take a bit of getting used to, but after that, they are, at least so far for me, 'the cat's meow'.

Rick

I have no trouble at all with keeping horses on banana's for years. But as Rick said, it depends. I must say that I never had any favorable outcome from taking horses off banana's. At best it did not make any difference, but in a lot of cases feet drifted back to distortion where I found them. I prefer to explain about the banana in terms of how to apply them correctly. But as in horse shoeing there is so much more to be told. I brought it up a couple of times but only a few picked it up. And that's about the effect shoeing has on the way a horses uses it's back. Banana's for me are primarily a way to influence just that. I found years ago that as a shoer you can do so much more than just fix feet. You can fix a horse if you pay enough attention and are willing to do all it takes. That's one reason I have strong reservations against some barefoot people (owners, rather than trimmers, trimmers just don't have the skill to shoe horses, but may well be fine trimmers) that insist on keeping horses barefoot always. They do not want to do áll it takes to get a horse sound. They limit the chances on helping a horse by individual choice. They don't give it all, they just don't care enough. I don't want to take it too far but I think thats offensive both to the horse and to whoever created horses, God or Darwin.

Further I found a lot of people feel that if something does miracles for them and has for a long period, like banana's have for me, they need to convince the world that that's the way to go. I don't. Frankly I don't care if nobody uses this concept. I don't make a dime explaining about it and I don't make a dime if somebody uses it or does not use it. I have had sensational results with this concept, and that alone is more than good enough for me.

The reason I take as much time as I can to answer questions on this is that I did not invent horse shoeing. I did not come up with the banana shoe deal either. People taught me. They were courteous enough to explain a concept and left the fine tuning to me in order to make it work for me. Which I did. That goes for horse shoeing and banana's, but fixing horses is about so much more than just that one single tool banana's are. I hope this also explains that I don't really care if any shoe I use is considered a "therapeutic" shoe or a "performance" shoe. I take what works given the situation at hand. Hopefully I pick the right concept, if it appears I have not I will change it until I find what does work.

I will go at lengths to explain in detail ALL I know on horse shoeing and banana shoes and whatever I may have to tell about horses. But this is not to show of or make money, it's solely out of respect for those who taught me and are still teaching me, (on this very same board for one) ánd those who are looking for ways to improve themselves, like I still am. I have explained this before but where I came from I had to learn the old fashioned way. I was an apprentice for 10 years until it was decided to kick me loose. I learned in those ten years like I am still learning today. My mentors made an effort to teach me all the knew. That takes time see.



Ronald Aalders

p.s. this horse has been on banana fronts for over 3 years, until they finally won it.

pp.s and another link: http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2759&highlight=perfusion

Kim,
This has nothing to do w/ your ?,but I was wondering why in the first photo the foot shows no nail holes and appears freshly trimmed. Seems to me that the foot/shoeing was grossly overdue/neglected. It's obvious in the photo that no thought was given to the mechanics of the shoe when placed for the pic. I'm no "guru" to the application of "naners" and I believe Ron's answered your ?'s. Thank you for sharing.

Clint

Ron, Rick and others, thank you for taking the time to explain as I hoped I learned something new

Clint, I did not do the dissection I only have the pictures in a presentation. I don't know the history, except the little I said in the first post.

I was not trying to slam Banana Shoes, but wanting to understand their use.

I do not feel qualified to apply these so will stick with my Epona's for now, but I do enjoy adding more information to my brain database.

Kim,
I know you weren't "slamming". Just curiosities that were bugging me. Had to ask. Thank's for posting them.

P.S. You come across as a "sweetheart" on here lately.Good on you!

Will be seeing you in other venues,
Clint

Ronald Aalders wrote:Ron can I ask you ,dose your measurements of toe & heel proportions lengths hight in relationship from were you have marked articulation as demonstrated in your marking up of the hoof Xray, stay static in your calculations Even if bones in the limb are verdant in size lengths & modelling of bone density due to genetics' of breed-type.

irishcas wrote:kim could you tell us if there was any fusing of joint's in the limb, restriction in articulation or ossification of cartilage taking place in the joints ?

Rick Burten wrote:
Rick, as a friend: Please be careful with these shoes. They have caused a lot of people damage to tendons and knees. My Mom was wearing them for a bit over a year and has some permanent damage now to one of the ligaments in her knee as well as a tendon in her calf that her orthopod says is caused by the shoes.

Sorry this is off topic, I just wanted to put it out there friend to friend.

Thanks Karen. I'll keep an eye on it. In truth, considering the wreckage know as my knees and other assorted body parts, there's not a lot left to damage.

Rick

Rick Burten wrote:
Hi all,

Rick, Karen

Didn't back in the 70's didn't they make a shoe called the ROOT shoe that was all the rage that disapeared, seems like almost the same thing.