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TOPIC: Adverse effect of setting the shoe back

RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 06 Oct 2009 12:42 #196

reillyshoe wrote:
The system is manufactured by Tekscan, software included. They can give you the other info. I do expect to publish info arising from this system.
Pat,

Which sensor are you using?

OK, when will the information be made available. You are publishing a conclusion but it seems that there is additional data that are not included. When will 100% of the data be available?
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 06 Oct 2009 13:50 #197

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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Pat,

Which sensor are you using?

OK, when will the information be made available. You are publishing a conclusion but it seems that there is additional data that are not included. When will 100% of the data be available?

I am presenting the results of a pilot study. The data provided is (and will be) based upon the requirments of the publication. The company can tell you which sensor I am using.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 06 Oct 2009 14:17 #198

Hmmph. Well, it would be nice to see the actual data, all of it, in one place.

I still am having some difficulty relating the directional point (or pressured pad) loading results to shear, tension, compression and moment (the actual loads). Some of this is due to my inability to put together the data from these somewhat bits and pieces being discussed. It appears there is some merit, but as someone stated, it may simply reinforce the current method(s) based on what the assumed transmitted loads are to the biological apparatus - that is the discussion?

Assuming that tearing - I assume you all mean shear here - not tension, and "pulling" (rotational or moment forces) - the math is more than simple but calculable. Yes, some assumption would be based on the actual tissue strengths and configurations - as simply put, muscle versus skin - and the angle of attachment of these changes on stride - so there is (I assume as when someone in sports overloads their joint ends up with a meniscus tear) based on the simple mass, velocity, force (least not forget acceleration) tears a meniscus.

I would have some concerns about the method - it is a great start - you need to start somewhere and you have.

But I wonder, if there is as I understand, a compressible material - let me regress.

If there is a "cap" or plate placed across the bottom of the hoof shoe - and filled with a compressible material such as silicone or other - then the force is not directly related to the actual forces due to the fact the material is transmitting forces in other directions than down. Therefore, information is missing. Loads are not exactly as read - although again they give pause for thought. It does not and at no time am I stating there is not relevant information to what is being discussed and being presented. Far from it.

If the plate was filled with water - incompressible - then the forces would be equal? Yes, in pounds-per-square-inch to the ground bearing plate and surfaces in contact with the water (except of course - the fluctuation of force due to mass times acceleration - there is more force being applied to the directional attribute(s). But still the answer is no to the "feel" upon the tissue. Obvious - for sure.
I find sometimes the obvious is best stated, it is part of the building of a theorem - know and unknown, sometimes what is being explored yileds what is not being searched for - I am not attempting to use manusca (how do you say - 'manure' - I am probably using the name of a womens mascara instead by accident) to gild my reply but it even somewhat appears that way to me to upon reading where I am going (the obvious). I know that, after reading this thread - I make assumptions based on what I know which affect nothing other than my opinion ( I hope not another living breathing organism without a thougoughly (hey, I can't even spell, who am I to speak) reviewed and sound scientific procedure).

That (those forces) will directly relate to the actual versus apparent forces that are being discussed - as to how they interact with tissue - again, depends on the tissue and configuration. I guess you would need to have an idea as to the strength (the force applied to the the tissue before it is ruptured) - before you can say 45lbs makes a difference - and there is, I believe, some dissection of dead limbs that may point to that number (at least in that dead horse). Point is, there must always be some consideration (grain of salt if you will) given to the unknowns. And besides 45lbs, if the tissue is already under some ailment - it is not like good tissue so let's dissect like tissue too.

Will 45lbs make the difference? I don't know. It must be better than relieving nothing? Some yes, some no? Depends on . . . but yes, in a pool of water . . . . weight (not mass) will be less bearing . . . . .

So what perhaps would (I suggest - by no means without some real down to earth scientific procedure and application - testing would need to be done on a CONTROL - mandatory step to get baseline - to know what is being measured.) work slightly better would be a segmented load cell. Such a device would allow for sensing forces in three lines of motion. Vectors to Tom and he is correct. Perhaps, it would need to be packaged as two devices - each segmented load cell being tested separately and the data combined (you understand the need for a control test) - and even then with a control test performed first and after too - you know that equipment calibration stuff is important - there is a possibility that due to the horse itself not moving in exactly (perhaps) the same motion (speed, direction, . . .related to hoof loading) the results would still be slightly suspect but a lot more believable in the scientific community. Of course, again, many, many tests would need to be completed for statistical verification (statistics can also be twisted in a very un=nerving manner ---- did you know that only 48.5 % of the population in the US is actually working - per US Census Bureau data - if you include women and children, and the unemployment rate is significantly higher than stated by the Gov - if you include those that are no longer looking for jobs or are no longer receiving unemployment?

Let us not confuse point loads - with actual pressure loads. Seems there is a lot about 45lbs . . . the load reduced by . . . .the sidewall . . . . well folks, the actual per square inch and "distributed loading" are different and need to be considered. If I place 100lbs on my head by using a sharp pointed object at the interface between head and weight (been suggested I should do just that) - then I die more than likely. If I use a fitted head plate - I live and would not experience that much discomfort - they do this all day long in other countries - as long as they are healthy and do not have spinabifida or other ailment - there I go again trashing my own statement . . . .

The point is, good scientific method, combined with measurement devices that are precise, along with repeatable (somewhat due to the biological factor - the horse!) results yield very convincing results.

Yes, this all seems to be overkill. But no, it is not if you expect results that are defined and yield a high percentage of probable conclusion.

I, again, am NOT, by any means, stating anyone has done wrong or right. I simply do not have enough information. I can see where it may lead but this is like how the justice system is supposed to work - innocent until proven guilty. I am innocent and I doubt you will prove me guilty of other than asking, listening, reading and analyzing what is presented. It may prove support something other than what is being assumed - and I welcome the thought I may gain knowledge and become somewhat learned. That only happens when everyone can concentrate on the testing method and results. Perhaps I have put a pea under someone and that will spark (brainstorming?) some thought other than dissertation about what has been discussed already. Perhaps moving on to the other aspects of this will lead back to the conclusion. Who said perhaps this will something about reinforce or whatever what is already accepted . . .

I apologize for my long winded response - I get caught up in thought - often my own. Perhaps I am missing something myself, Jaye is correct - keep posting, I await the data.
Sincerely,

Ernie

"Attempting to be informed, not opinionated"
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 06 Oct 2009 15:24 #199

This reminds me of the days when I installed pressure, flow and level detectors for a few local water depts. The voltage from the sensors were converted to 1 and 0's (digital) and transmitted to a central computer which computed the data to actual flow, pressure and level. The data was useful because the desired information was simple to collect and the sensors physicaly placed in the desired locations to monitor water flow from pumps, tank pressure and level. Alarms would trigger if the flow, level and pressure was too low or too high. Fascinating technology and very useful, however applying pressure pads to horses feet seems to me, to be a very difficult task considering all the variables. What exactly are we trying to measure and for what purpose? Is it necessary to collect data, when it appears to me the best tool is observation and empirical data. I'm not a numbers type of individual, I do see the value of collecting data, for example water tanks, pumps and flow when it is very difficult to observe these things and the technology is available to give a clear picture. I'm not sure if we can get a clear picture of the forces applied to the horses foot and at time probably over think and complicate the whole concept of trimming and shoeing. Just my thoughts and as the above post stated not trying to be argumentative, just joining in on the discussion.
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 06 Oct 2009 19:41 #200

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Hi Ernie, run that by me again, only this time try and stick to about three sentences!


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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 06 Oct 2009 21:44 #201

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Newbie,
The starting point is the baseline. The adjustments made are the study group.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 06 Oct 2009 22:04 #202

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Denise, I was unable to find any region of the hoof where there was a dramatic reduction in force when the hoofwall was removed. It appears to be slight reductions from a larger area with more force than the dorsal sole rather than a specific area.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 06 Oct 2009 22:50 #203

I hope you do not think I'm trying to shoot holes in your system. This really does remind me of the days when I worked long hours over a period of a year figuring out how to install, setup and fine tune systems for local Water Departments. Back then the computers were DOS and I can remember many sleepless nights, because this was a huge contract with a dead line. Trying to learn analog to digital conversion, transmission of data and then end up with a user friendly system for the Water Dept employees to see a clear picture of water flow, pressure and tank levels. Trust me this was no easy task and this was simple compared to collecting data on a living breathing animal.

During the day today I was thinking about what your trying to do and how I could help you out. We do not need to be friends Pat and in my opinion when research is being done it is best to keep things all business. I think everyone knows you and I won't be inviting each other to cookouts and staying up late at night drinking together.

Food for thought, it would be ideal if we could surgically in plant sensors. The more I thought about it, horses already have built in sensors that are perfectly wired to send data to the horses brain. The trick is to figure out how to collect that data and I have some ideas on how to objectively and non invasive way of going about this.
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 06 Oct 2009 22:55 #204

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I don't think that of you Phil.

I do think that I am done posting here. Unfortunately, this doesn't appear to be a forum conducive to presenting this type of information. Thank you for you interest, and thanks to those who have sent positive messages.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 06 Oct 2009 23:58 #205

reillyshoe wrote:
I don't think that of you Phil.

I do think that I am done posting here. Unfortunately, this doesn't appear to be a forum condusive to presenting this type of information. Thank you for you interest, and thanks to those who have sent positive messages.

Pat, glad to hear you do not think that of me, I was not sure who you were referring to and I can come across the wrong way sometimes. :)

I think this forum fine for a discussion like this. Your going to run into all kinds of different opinions, sometimes things you would not expect, but still good food for thought.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 07 Oct 2009 00:07 #206

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reillyshoe wrote:
I do think that I am done posting here. Unfortunately, this doesn't appear to be a forum conducive to presenting this type of information. Thank you for you interest, and thanks to those who have sent positive messages.

Don't do it, Pat. There are many of us who look forward to your posts and your research and respect your abilities, knowledge, and work. Don't make me come up there.:cool::D
RJ Little
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 07 Oct 2009 01:38 #207

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westtxshoer wrote:
Don't do it, Pat. There are many of us who look forward to your posts and your research and respect your abilities, knowledge, and work. Don't make me come up there.:cool::D
What he said!

Rick
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 07 Oct 2009 06:47 #208

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Pat, you must expose your work at the risk of negative comments.
Those comments should then help you to write either a better paper, or a more enlightened review of your work…nothing is wasted!

Use this forum as a testing ground.
All the best, David


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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 07 Oct 2009 11:00 #209

David Gill wrote:
Pat, you must expose your work at the risk of negative comments.
Those comments should then help you to write either a better paper, or a more enlightened review of your work…nothing is wasted!

Use this forum as a testing ground.
All the best, David

Well said David, I agree. This forum has a very large audience and participation. What a huge and wonderful resource. How many companies, researchers and organizations work hard to gather feedback. Here it is right at our finger tips.
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 07 Oct 2009 12:40 #210

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reillyshoe wrote:
Do you think "toe leverage" is affected by management of the dorsal hoofwall
I view the ground interface with the dorsal hoof wall as the pivot point of the lever pulling on the DFT as the heel lifts at the beginning of break over. Since the DFT wraps around and under the DFT, I must also consider the central axis of the DIJ as the other end of a lever (the center of a pully which itself is a lever). This leverage system is under its peak strain just preceding the moment of heel lift. I cannot cite studies from the top of my head, but in the studies I have read the peak force on the DFT has corresponding peak force on the dorsal lamina. One obvious clinical sign of a laminatic horse is the way the horse rocks back on its hind end and tries to avoid loading the strain on the lamina at breakover.

I also view this breakover point as the ventral end of the A/P base of weight bearing support when the bare foot horse is standing on a firm flat surface. It is the apex of a weight bearing triangle as well as the pivot point of a locomotory (is that a real word?) lever.
or is this a matter of breakover position?
The breakover pivot point is not something that can be scientifically evaluated as a separate discreet element for either static weight bearing or dynamic loading/unloading methods of assessment.

This point is one apex of a triangle. You cannot move one apex of a triangle and not have an affect on the rest of the triangle. The other angles change at the other two apexes and the length of the sides which meet at the modified apex also change.

As a side note; It is because we are dealing with a triangle that I do not pay much attention to hoof protractors as a measurement tool. The tool only accounts for the length of one side of the triangle (toe length) and the angle at one apex. Without the other sides and apexes the information from the protractor is useless because the Dead Greeks didn't give us any math to figure out that information from just two elements. ;)
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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