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TOPIC: Adverse effect of setting the shoe back

RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 21:48 #181

  • Jaye Perry
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tbloomer-1. "with a force measuring sensor positioned in between the shoe/pad and the foot."
2. "a roller motion shoe with a Sigafoos cuff and convex silicone impression material"

How does the sensor measure force in the "area of interest?"

"the peak force measured under the distal margin of P3 increased by 15%"

Use the conclusion Bloomer in it's intended context......:rolleyes:


From post #6-
Conclusion
In the averaged stride, the peak force measured under the distal margin of P3 increased by 15% once the overhanging toe was removed. Farriers and veterinarians can debate the potential benefits of reducing the mechanical forces exerted on the hoof and foot during locomotion, there does seem to be an adverse effect on hoof capsule integrity created by the removal of this hoof. There are certainly methods of overcoming this increase in dorsal solar pressure, however it is important to note that this shoeing practice does create the need to overcome greater force in an area that we are all interested in protecting on the laminitic patient.
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 22:15 #182

  • reillyshoe
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tbloomer wrote:
Put a stack of horseshoes 6 feet high on top of the sensor. The sensor will show the center of "pressure" to be somewhere in the center of that stack of horseshoes. But in the center of that stack of horseshoes there is nothing but AIR.

Measuring this as I did, if I stacked up a pile of horseshoes and measured the peak force under the area where the distal margin of P3 would be the total would be zero. No force would be observed at that area. Does that help?
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 22:23 #183

  • reillyshoe
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Tom,
The following picture shows the change in peak force observed by adding a convex sole support over several steps (same shoe and sensor). The graph shows the force measured in the outlined area (in this case, the hoofwall). If you notice on the graph, the force comparison shows a reduction of force on the hoofwall when the horse walks. Clearly the force didn't disappear, but it has been removed from that outlined area. The peak force for much of that area now measures "zero" since there is no force present in that region when the horse walks.


The CoF is a calculated location based upon the center of force, however this has nothing to do with my graphs or the 15% number. Those were based upon actual force in the area measured.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 22:34 #184

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By the way, feel free to reference this image whenever someone refers to a horseshoe as a "peripheral loading device". Apparently "it depends"!
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 22:55 #185

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DeniseMc wrote:
Hi Pat,
Since force measurements have a speed variable I'm just curious about the speed of the walk in each experiment--was it measured and was it identical?
Denise

Good question Denise. As you see in the graph above, the walk was slightly slower with the convex pad in place. Since force = Mass x acceleration, you would expect the total force to be lower in the padded trial, and as I recall it was. If the overall force on the foot remains constant (as it was in the dorsal wall trials) and the stride length is constant, I accept the trials as similar.
It is also possible to compare a region of the foot as a percentage of the overall force, but this increases the possibility of error.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 23:01 #186

  • Rick Burten
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reillyshoe wrote:
The following picture shows the change in peak force observed by adding a convex sole support over several steps (same shoe and sensor). The peak force for much of that area now measures "zero" since there is no force present in that region when the horse walks.

Pat,

If I'm understanding this correctly(and the odds of that are 50/50 at best :o ),
When you shifted the weight bearing to the area of the foot inside the inside perimeter of the shoe by adding convex sole support, the force measurments under the shoe approached zero. If that is indeed the case, I would ask, what else would you expect? :confused:

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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 23:05 #187

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reillyshoe wrote:
By the way, feel free to reference this image whenever someone refers to a horseshoe as a "peripheral loading device". Apparently "it depends"!
Maybe someone should send this info to Dr. Bowker? It appears that he will have to re-think and re-do his current lecture presentation on the "the shoe is a PLD"...

Rick
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 23:15 #188

Pat,

Who is the manufacture of the device you are using?
What is the model number of the device?
What software are you using to evaluate the captured data?
Will you publish any and all special formula used to examine or manipulate your captured data?
Will you make your raw data available for peer review?
Have you documented the steps you took one step at a time and will you publish that documentation for peer review?
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 23:16 #189

  • tbloomer
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reillyshoe wrote:
Measuring this as I did, if I stacked up a pile of horseshoes and measured the peak force under the area where the distal margin of P3 would be the total would be zero. No force would be observed at that area. Does that help?
Yes. It helps a lot. It is downright awesome. In fact it confirms my original assessment of what is happening in the exchange of forces and why chopping off the toe is a good thing.

If in fact you are directly measuring ground force pressure under the tip of P3, then your shoeing package has made that area weight bearing to some degree. Furthermore, if that measurement is direct weight bearing, it is reasonable and logical to conclude that the extra 45 lbs of weight measured at the peak loading point is 45lbs less weight/toe leverage tearing at dorsal laminar interface. I would conclude that this is a good thing for the lamina. AND I AGREE that it is not a good thing for the distal end of P3 . . . BUT! Bernie Chapman got it right without force plates.

Since we can provide weight bearing support below P3 in the caudal foot and at the same time provide relief of weight bearing at the tip of P3 (don't stick anything under that part of he foot), why would I NOT want to reduce toe leverage and weight bearing forces on the dorsal laminar interface?

Most founder packages already avoid any weight bearing contact in the "area of interest" and attempt to shift as much support as possible to the caudal area of the foot. If chopping off the toe relieves the leverage and laminar strain (in this case by 45lbs) I can very easily make up the difference in other areas and allow the lamina to heal under a reduced load.
Tom Bloomer
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302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 23:30 #190

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DeniseMc wrote:
Similar, yes, but constant stride length at a walk doesn't necessary equate to constant speed at the walk. I think Clayton et al in their (stationary) force plate analysis use sensors to actually measure and confirm actual speed. I wouldn't necessarily rule out speed differences to account for a 15% difference in a measured (or extrapolated?) force. Walking at .9 meters/sec vs walking at 1.1 meters/sec; you do the math...
Denise
Denise,
The force on the foot was constant in these trials.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 23:33 #191

  • reillyshoe
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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Pat,

Who is the manufacture of the device you are using?
What is the model number of the device?
What software are you using to evaluate the captured data?
Will you publish any and all special formula used to examine or manipulate your captured data?
Will you make your raw data available for peer review?
Have you documented the steps you took one step at a time and will you publish that documentation for peer review?


The system is manufactured by Tekscan, software included. They can give you the other info. I do expect to publish info arising from this system.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 23:35 #192

  • reillyshoe
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tbloomer wrote:
Yes. It helps a lot. It is downright awesome. In fact it confirms my original assessment of what is happening in the exchange of forces and why chopping off the toe is a good thing.

If in fact you are directly measuring ground force pressure under the tip of P3, then your shoeing package has made that area weight bearing to some degree. Furthermore, if that measurement is direct weight bearing, it is reasonable and logical to conclude that the extra 45 lbs of weight measured at the peak loading point is 45lbs less weight/toe leverage tearing at dorsal laminar interface. I would conclude that this is a good thing for the lamina. AND I AGREE that it is not a good thing for the distal end of P3 . . . BUT! Bernie Chapman got it right without force plates.

Since we can provide weight bearing support below P3 in the caudal foot and at the same time provide relief of weight bearing at the tip of P3 (don't stick anything under that part of he foot), why would I NOT want to reduce toe leverage and weight bearing forces on the dorsal laminar interface?

Most founder packages already avoid any weight bearing contact in the "area of interest" and attempt to shift as much support as possible to the caudal area of the foot. If chopping off the toe relieves the leverage and laminar strain (in this case by 45lbs) I can very easily make up the difference in other areas and allow the lamina to heal under a reduced load.

Great Tom, I am glad you get it now.
If you look back I mentioned this in the forst few posts.

If you feel 45 lbs per stride under the tip of P3 is easily overcome, then we have different views. I can live with that.
Do you think "toe leverage" is affected by management of the dorsal hoofwall, or is this a matter of breakover position?
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 23:51 #193

  • irishcas
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Rick Burten wrote:
Maybe someone should send this info to Dr. Bowker? It appears that he will have to re-think and re-do his current lecture presentation on the "the shoe is a PLD"...

Rick

Snort :)

And btw, you have Staff, what the hell?????
Kim Cassidy
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 23:52 #194

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DeniseMc wrote:
Hi Pat,


Sorry, getting an absolute splitting headache here...So what was the force on the back of the hoof (ie frog)? Did it decrease by 15%?
Denise
I have not looked to see where the force went down. I'll check later.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 06 Oct 2009 11:05 #195

David Gill wrote:
Tom, do I detect a slight hint of jealousy?

Of course I know that if I had Pat’s techno equipment, I could rewrite the rules of horseshoeing as we now know it!

But if you truly want to help us mere mortals, don’t blame us for not understanding; make you self understood more easily.

I’m positive you have more to offer and I'm also sure that you have the ability to help others make the best use of Pat’s findings.

Tom, jealous, I don't think so. Just contributing to the discussion.

It is also possible rewriting will not be necessary this technology and findings may support time tested methods.
Phil Armitage, CF
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