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TOPIC: Adverse effect of setting the shoe back

RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 12:43 #166

  • reillyshoe
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Rick,
I have no doubt that moving the breakover back is helpful for a laminitic horse. I would also recognize that in virtually every case we examine post mortem, there is evidence of trauma under the distal margin of P3. Shouldn't this be considered when treating the existing pathology? It is at least possible that in our attempt to lessen the forces of breakover that we are inadvertently placing more force on an area of great concern to the laminitic patient.

Perhaps there is a "happy medium", but to find this we need to measure what's happening.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 12:47 #167

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Rick Burten wrote:
It seems to me that if the hoof wall integrity has already been compromised by a pathology, then leaving disinterdigitated dorsal wall in place will only serve to exacerbate the problem(s).


Rick (this is what you get for making me heavily expend cerebral energy ;) )

Remember, this foot is pathological in all trials. The difference is how the dorsal hoof managment further affects hoof capsule integrity.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 13:01 #168

  • Jaye Perry
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Rick Burten-Have you considered the effect of a laminar wedge or other distortion on the hoof capsule or an extended lever at the toe, if they are allowed to remain in place?

see post #86
It seems to me that if the hoof wall integrity has already been compromised by a pathology, then leaving disinterdigitated dorsal wall in place will only serve to exacerbate the problem(s).

Mechanical intervention
If, horn is removed by ramping/beveling the toe from the ground, upwards at an angle, would that not retain the integrity of the dorsal hoof wall and not cause a loss of capsular integrity?

Rick (this is what you get for making me heavily expend cerebral energy ;) )

Within the context of this thread, laminitis, "capsular integrity" is key. Mechanical attachment of shoe or appliance , IMO, counterbalances some/most of the mechanical detriment of the pathology. Simplistic, but true. Histological and medical detriment can heal if we provide environments/mechanics/situations for the processes to occur.
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 13:20 #169

  • tbloomer
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The force or or in the sole is NOT measured in this experiment. It is calculated by interpolation between two centers of force concentration between the hoof wall and the shoe like this:



If you look at the graphic from the force plate software you will see changes in color in the areas of F1 and F2. Draw a line connecting those area. The force at F2 is greater than the force at F1. Therefore the interpolated center of distribution those forces (the red diamond in the force plate graphic) is offset closer to F2.

That is how the instrument measured and calculated what is represented in the graphic. Based on that, some people are making assumptions that the calculated force is the actual force in the calculated center under the tip of P3.

You can measure the weight under each tire on a car and determine the center of weight distribution over the frame. You can change something in the care and that will affect the results of the measurement.

What you CAN NOT KNOW from the calculated distribution is which specific components in the suspension have experienced a change in stress and strain. Therefore, making assertions or forming conclusions about unmeasured parts of the system is CONJECTURE.

If what I am trying to explain is not crystal clear to you, then you probably should not be making any decisions about the relevance of the output from the measurement tools.

First understand what the tool is doing before you let the tool do your thinking for you.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 13:35 #170

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The force or or in the sole is NOT measured in this experiment. It is calculated by interpolation between two centers of force concentration between the hoof wall and the shoe like this:



If you look at the graphic from the force plate software you will see changes in color in the areas of F1 and F2. Draw a line connecting those area. The force at F2 is greater than the force at F1. Therefore the interpolated center of distribution those forces (the red diamond in the force plate graphic) is offset closer to F2.

That is how the instrument measured and calculated what is represented in the graphic. Based on that, some people are making assumptions that the calculated force is the actual force in the calculated center under the tip of P3.

You can measure the weight under each tire on a car and determine the center of weight distribution over the frame. You can change something in the care and that will affect the results of the measurement.

What you CAN NOT KNOW from the calculated distribution is which specific components in the suspension have experienced a change in stress and strain. Therefore, making assertions or forming conclusions about unmeasured parts of the system is CONJECTURE.

If what I am trying to explain is not crystal clear to you, then you probably should not be making any decisions about the relevance of the output from the measurement tools.

First understand what the tool is doing before you let the tool do your thinking for you.


First one must undersatnd the the bones of a horse's limbs are assymetrical. A basic premise.:rolleyes:
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 13:38 #171

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Jaye Perry wrote:
Histological and medical detriment can heal if we provide environments/mechanics/situations for the processes to occur.
AND some can heal in spite of what we provide. As empirical situations show, many different protocols (environments/mechanics/situations) appear to work on many different horses some of the time while NONE appear to work on all horses all of the time.

"IT" is a very big word in the context of the question - "On WHAT does it depend?" Sometimes "IT" jumps up and bites us on the a$$ and sometimes "IT" smacks us in the forehead.

Deal with "IT."
Get over "IT."
Don't let "IT" get to you.

. . . and damn "IT." :)
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 13:44 #172

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Jaye Perry wrote:
tbloomer;177411]
First one must undersatnd the the bones of a horse's limbs are assymetrical. A basic premise.:rolleyes:
Are you saying that I don't understand that in spite of the fact that I just provided a diagram that substantiates my understanding? You agree with me and then tell me I'm wrong?
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 14:00 #173

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tbloomer wrote:
AND some can heal in spite of what we provide. As empirical situations show, many different protocols (environments/mechanics/situations) appear to work on many different horses some of the time while NONE appear to work on all horses all of the time.

"IT" is a very big word in the context of the question - "On WHAT does it depend?" Sometimes "IT" jumps up and bites us on the a$$ and sometimes "IT" smacks us in the forehead.

Deal with "IT."
Get over "IT."
Don't let "IT" get to you.

. . . and damn "IT." :)

If it OCCURS
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 14:05 #174

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tbloomer wrote:
Are you saying that I don't understand that in spite of the fact that I just provided a diagram that substantiates my understanding? You agree with me and then tell me I'm wrong?

What you CAN NOT KNOW from the calculated distribution is which specific components in the suspension have experienced a change in stress and strain. Therefore, making assertions or forming conclusions about unmeasured parts of the system is CONJECTURE

Conjecture is the word. Stress and strain are measured with other devices:


Thomason JJ, Bignell WW, Batiste D, and Sears W. 2004 Effects of hoofshape, body mass and velocity on surface strain in the wall of the unshod forehoof of Standardbreds trotting on a treadmill. Equine and Comparative Exercise Physiology 1: 87-97.
McClinchey HL, Thomason JJ, and Jofriet, JC. 2003 Isolating the effects of equine hoof shape measurements on capsule strain with finite element analysis. Veterinary and Comparative Orthopaedics and Traumatology 16: 67-75.
Thomason JJ, McClinchey HL, and Jofriet, JC. 2002 The analysis of strain and stress in the equine hoof capsule using finite element methods: comparison with principal strains recorded in vivo. Equine Veterinary Journal 34:719-725.
Jenkins, I, Thomason JJ, and Norman DB. 2002 Primates and engineering principles: applications to craniodental mechanisms in ancient terrestrial predators.
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 16:17 #175

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Tom,
Teh red diamond represents the center of peak force within the area of interest (the red shape outlining the dorsal sole). The black and white diamond represents the CoF for the peak force on the entire foot.

Also, this measurement is evaluated at the walk only. For what you are trying to show, I would think you would need to track the CoF throughout the stride.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 16:43 #176

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The following is an illustration to explain how I view the method of data collection and analysis in the experiment at the beginning of this thread. Perhaps it may help the reader understand how technology can be used to make measurements and provide results that may not have any real bearing on the situation.
__________________________________________________

Last night there were earthquakes reported in Seattle, Atlantic City, Los Angeles, and and Charleston. These earthquakes all happened at the same time. We fed that information into our computer. The computer performed calculations on that information and produced this graphical representation of the result.

According the the computer there was a really big earthquake somewhere between Topeka and St. Louis. Based on the scientific computer analysis, we have concluded that there is property damage and loss of life in the area inside the blue diamond and the damage is centered a the blue + sign.

Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 17:31 #177

  • hurleycane
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http://horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11270&stc=1&d=1254730546

Woah!!! Please explain Mr Talisman! Why was the wall removed from any supporting role?
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 17:49 #178

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I am not sure that you understand how I am arriving at the data Tom. The graphs that I have put up are only comparing the peak force in an average stride inside this red area.


I have not commented anywhere on the force changes in other regions of the solar hoof. You vector diagram included information from outside this red zone.
P
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 19:40 #179

  • David Gill
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Tom, do I detect a slight hint of jealousy?

Of course I know that if I had Pat’s techno equipment, I could rewrite the rules of horseshoeing as we now know it!

But if you truly want to help us mere mortals, don’t blame us for not understanding; make you self understood more easily.

I’m positive you have more to offer and I'm also sure that you have the ability to help others make the best use of Pat’s findings.


David W. Gill AFCL
http://www.thefarrierbox.co.uk/
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RE:Adverse effect of setting the shoe back 05 Oct 2009 21:27 #180

  • tbloomer
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1. "with a force measuring sensor positioned in between the shoe/pad and the foot."
2. "a roller motion shoe with a Sigafoos cuff and convex silicone impression material"

How does the sensor measure force in the "area of interest?"

"the peak force measured under the distal margin of P3 increased by 15%"

The sensor is measuring the force between the hoof and shoe. How does it MEASURE the force between the solar surface at the tip of P3 (the area of interest) and the ground, the pad, the shoe, or anything at all if that area is convex silicone impression material?

The shoe is directly transmitting ground force (pushing against) the sensor and the hoof is directly transmitting weight bearing force (pushing against) the sensor.

What is pushing against the sensor in the area of interest? It is convex silicone impression material. Compared to the silicone impression material, the shoe and the hoof are relatively hard and unyielding. How does the sensor determine the force in an area where there is not force?

Put a stack of horseshoes 6 feet high on top of the sensor. The sensor will show the center of "pressure" to be somewhere in the center of that stack of horseshoes. But in the center of that stack of horseshoes there is nothing but AIR. What have you got? More air pressure inside the stack of horseshoes? The sensor says the center of the force is in the middle of that empty space. Indeed the CALCULATED center of the force IS there, but there is NO weight bearing or ground support reaction - it is empty space.

So what is the sensor trying to say? Is it trying to say that it has measured force in empty space? How can that make any sense (pun intended) at all?
Tom Bloomer
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