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TOPIC: New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay

RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 24 Dec 2009 04:31 #46

  • jack-mac
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Cyber Farrier wrote:
I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but common sense also would indicate that if the water being used for soaking is acceptable to be used as drinking water, then it's most likely in the neutral ph range, and the difference in results between water that is either slightly alkali or slightly acidic is going to be negligible. But John already knew that. He just likes to stir things up.

Baron Tayler
If the purpose of soaking hay in water is that for the purpose of a solvent to break it down & rid it of carbohydrates, sugars .Common sense should tell you that soaking will aid in digestion when feed, better digestion, more nutrient up take more weight gained , if the sugar content required to be removed has not been removed to a very high extent .common sense should also dictate soaking feed stock for a long enough a period to rid it from the sugar content to have any benefit claimed in reducing carbohydrates ,will make it sour & start to ferment, a risky thing to feed horses if you want to avoid colic & laminitis
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 24 Dec 2009 07:15 #47

  • Clint Burrell
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Don't "experience" play in here as well. Regardless the science, soaking hay has proved it's worth w/ IR and metabolic horses. Tell us Jack why that is.
Clint Burrell

"You say your from collage,
but you don't seem to bright.
You just brought a swichblade
to a pistol fight"
Move On by Chris Knight
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 24 Dec 2009 09:25 #48

  • Rick Burten
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Before deciding whether or not John is a crackpot, it might prove illustrative to compare John's experience/knowledge in this area with that of Katy's.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 24 Dec 2009 13:33 #49

  • Katy Watts
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OK, I'll play. Here's a list of my articles published in veterinary and nutrition journals. Another is 'in press', and another in final stages of editing with my co-authors at USDA. Conference proceedings are not included. I have presented at 5 conferences on laminitis, and was recently invited to the AAEP laminitis researcher workshop, attended by 50 experts from around the world.

The reviewed scientific articles by Kathryn Watts are in PDF format.

* A Review of Factors Affecting Carbohydrate Levels in Forage
* Soaking Hay to Remove Excess Soluble Carbohydrate and Potassium
* Unlikely Sources of Excess Carbohydrates in Equine Diets
* Pasture and Forage Management for Laminitic Horses
* Nitrogen Deficient grass is Higher in Non Structural Carbohydrates than grass fertlized with Ammonium Nitrate
* Dead Grass and Weeds may Contain High Levels of Non sturctural Carbohydrates
* Lushness is not a Factor of the NSC Concentration of Grass
* WSC Content of Forages in Autumn
* Nonstructural Carbohydrates in Oat Forage
* Grass Carbohydrate: What grass is Safer? New

John, would you please share your published work?
Thank you,
Katy
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
www.safergrass.org
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 24 Dec 2009 16:28 #50

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http://fatgirlslikeniceclothestoo.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/tumbleweed.jpg?w=400&h=300
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 24 Dec 2009 21:55 #51

  • jack-mac
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Katy Watts wrote:
OK, I'll play. Here's a list of my articles published in veterinary and nutrition journals. Another is 'in press', and another in final stages of editing with my co-authors at USDA. Conference proceedings are not included. I have presented at 5 conferences on laminitis, and was recently invited to the AAEP laminitis researcher workshop, attended by 50 experts from around the world.

The reviewed scientific articles by Kathryn Watts are in PDF format.

* A Review of Factors Affecting Carbohydrate Levels in Forage
* Soaking Hay to Remove Excess Soluble Carbohydrate and Potassium
* Unlikely Sources of Excess Carbohydrates in Equine Diets
* Pasture and Forage Management for Laminitic Horses
* Nitrogen Deficient grass is Higher in Non Structural Carbohydrates than grass fertlized with Ammonium Nitrate
* Dead Grass and Weeds may Contain High Levels of Non sturctural Carbohydrates
* Lushness is not a Factor of the NSC Concentration of Grass
* WSC Content of Forages in Autumn
* Nonstructural Carbohydrates in Oat Forage
* Grass Carbohydrate: What grass is Safer? New

John, would you please share your published work?
Thank you,
Katy
No i cant say I do have anything published under my name, I leave that to those more adapt at literary skill ,more initial after there name & funding!!!!! lots of it ,that's not to say i haven't contributed in a very small way on some friends work's ,life's a lot easier & persons more friendly towards you if they believe you to be unintelligent ,crack pot suits me fine ;) , There's nice little studies go on at the moment katy, being conducted on fat mice that were insulin resistant,they were injected intravenously with stem cells, they are no longer insulin resistant :) if person's wish to take your advice on soaking good luck to them & there horses they will need all the luck they can get.
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 27 Dec 2009 21:27 #52

jack-mac wrote:
No i cant say I do have anything published under my name, I leave that to those more adapt at literary skill ,more initial after there name & funding!!!!! lots of it ,that's not to say i haven't contributed in a very small way on some friends work's ,life's a lot easier & persons more friendly towards you if they believe you to be unintelligent ,crack pot suits me fine ;) , There's nice little studies go on at the moment katy, being conducted on fat mice that were insulin resistant,they were injected intravenously with stem cells, they are no longer insulin resistant :) if person's wish to take your advice on soaking good luck to them & there horses they will need all the luck they can get.


Well, if I were a betting man, my money would be on Katy to win!


Ronald Aalders
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 28 Dec 2009 10:43 #53

  • cynthia-jay
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I have some published works complete with photos/video

horse/rider/owner/breeder/DVM

no big deal, I consider it amature, not pro

no fancy credentials

got accomplished what I set out to do and a bit more came out of it for the good of the horse

some of us like to sit on the side lines and not "T@@T" our own horn

How much $$$$$ U have Ronald?

I just may take that bet

"WARNING"

I have been very lucky at the Casino's on occassion and lottery as well

Cha-ching

watch your pocket book

Cynthia:D
Cynthia Jay
Horseshoer
P.F.E.
shoot first, ask questions later, dead men tell no tails, nor do they tie up the legal system or jails
Ray Jay
The Last of the Mohicans

Kid Rock - Warrior (Lyrics)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHzSBEVbXtM
[url]...
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 29 Dec 2009 10:49 #54

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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My money is also on Katy. I am a betting man. :D

My published works have no where near the scientific gravitas or merit of Katy's. Mine have been contained to training horses and in terms of topic relevance have also included several articles in specialist publications such as: "Winter feeding", "Managing to avoid Colic", "Feeding the Carriage Horse", "Feeding the Competition Driving Horse", "Feeding Event Horses". So no scientific peer group reviewed studies. Just articles written on the basis of a breadth of relevent experience.

For many years my main occupation and income was derived from working as Head of Engineering for one of the largest animal feed manufacturers.

My own qualifications are:

- First degree is Electronic and Electrical Engineering

- BSc Honours Degree in Equine Science, Equine Anatomy and Equine Physiology

- BTec National in Animal Food Science

- BTec National in Blacksmithing, metal and forgework

- BHS Riding Instructor level 4

- BHS Examination Assessor

- BDS Advanced Light Harness Horse Instructor

- BDS Test Stage Assessor

And as its partially relevent, I'm a member (by qualification) of the National Association of Cattle Foot Trimming

Here we're highly regulated. You'll know that's the case with farriers here and that frequently causes use of a lot of bandwith on this forum every time someone mentions the hint of possibility of regulation there! ;)

I noticed today that the latest "they're coming to get us" scare monger post was about equine dentists.

We're all pretty used to this. We moan and groan about it but we accept it. :rolleyes: A bit like accepting if you want beautiful varied country and seasonal variety that it means it rains!

And likewise so a Riding Centre is not allowed to operate without a licence and without being able to evidence competence and with qualified and experienced instructors and owners etc. There is a system of annual inspection which includes not only checking that all qualified staff have undergone a process of continuous learning but also there's a veterinary inspection of all horses and testing of knowledge in relation to equine management.

Furthermore to drive commercially a carriage driver has to pass a test and be licenced and so additional to being licenced, I am a Test Examiner for that process.

As the proprietor of a centre I also have to evidence competence and qualification to manage my staff and continue to deliver and assess their ongoing formal training as they are also registered qualified instructors.
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 29 Dec 2009 12:29 #55

  • chris bunting
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tom etc
do you not have farrier qualifications?
chris
common sense is not needed when you have rules
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 29 Dec 2009 19:40 #56

  • cynthia-jay
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My credentials are not what I consider a Farrier,

in fact, they are refered to as a "Blacksmith", I happen to prefer "horseshoer" as you require even more skills to be a black smith than a Farrier and both are above a horseshoer

What's it to you Chris?

Cynthia
Cynthia Jay
Horseshoer
P.F.E.
shoot first, ask questions later, dead men tell no tails, nor do they tie up the legal system or jails
Ray Jay
The Last of the Mohicans

Kid Rock - Warrior (Lyrics)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHzSBEVbXtM
[url]...
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 30 Dec 2009 12:13 #57

  • chris bunting
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just wondered
chris
common sense is not needed when you have rules
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 30 Dec 2009 15:37 #58

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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chris bunting wrote:
tom etc
do you not have farrier qualifications?
chris
My formal qualifications are all posted above.

At least you know I'm not an untrained iron hanger or a self trained trimmer who pretends to be an expert on feeding beetroot! Or someone who once read a book by Strasser and then set off to ply a trade butchering feet :rolleyes:

I actually first saw the comment by Cynthia on the "what's the point" post that seems to have done a vanishing track. So the answer to what you want to actually know along with the history is here:
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6735&highlight=thomas

cynthia-jay wrote:
My credentials are not what I consider a Farrier

in fact, they are refered to as a "Blacksmith", I happen to prefer "horseshoer" as you require even more skills to be a black smith than a Farrier and both are above a horseshoer

Cynthia
Now there's a variation from the truth!

I've a blacksmithing qualification and it might well make me good at metal and forge work but it sure as heck doesn't make me able to shoe horses.

Cynthia, if you have that alone it would actually make you less skilled than a farrier. It would also make you not eligible to post here without express permission.
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 23 Feb 2010 07:16 #59

  • jack-mac
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
Well, if I were a betting man, my money would be on Katy to win!


Ronald Aalders
YA!!!!! Katy Wins


No I cant say I do have anything published under "my name" :D
& I don't think there is any obligation on me, posting my Wife's maiden name nor would I, are all those letters , she did have wonderful literary skills ;):D
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 07 Feb 2011 20:39 #60

  • Red Amor
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Gday Jack:)
nice t see ya olson;)
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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