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TOPIC: New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay

RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 17 Dec 2009 06:45 #16

  • jack-mac
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Oh & one other thing katy we have a lot of sugar ants over here in OZ should i be worried of sugar ant infestation in my hay stored in my hay sheds ?
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 17 Dec 2009 13:00 #17

  • Katy Watts
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Jack,

The agave plant used to make tequila is full of inulin, the type of fructan being used to induce laminitis. Ferments quite nicely. To prove how much sugar came out of hay, I made hay beer for my 'wet lab' at the 2005 Laminitis conference. Yes, it makes a good head of foam, and smells like beer in a couple days. The naturally occurring yeasts are all that is required. You are the perfect man to pioneer this new cottage industry. The highest sugar hay in Australia would be oat chaff cut during midwinter, or Kikuya or Rhoades grass cut during a hot drought.

Don't know about sugar ants, but oat or ryegrass hay around my part of the US is known to draw mice, IF and only if it is cut when conditions are conducive to sugar formation. I had six different kind of hay stored for a palatablity study, and the mice only got into the ryegrass that was 17% WSC.

Most people are stingy with water while soaking hay. Yes disposal can be problematic without proper planning. I use a full trash bin of water for about 20 pounds of hay. Maybe gallon of water per pound of hay. I have very sandy, rocky soil with high infiltration rates. After a month of running the water out on the same place, the soil sealed up with brown, sticky stuff and it drew flies something awful.

Katy
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 18 Dec 2009 01:21 #18

  • jack-mac
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Well katy i soak feeds to fatten my horses & cattle up , not to thin them down,i think you will find your soaking hay is counter productive , it takes ruffly 18lt of saliva to digest 1kg feed, by wetting feeds you reduce that need & improving enzyme interaction , I also feel you have a misunderstanding of what parts of the digestive tract takes up the majority of sugars,slow releasing carbohydrates up take is improved by soaking,horses are one of the most prolific produces of insulin , The notion of them becoming insulin resistant in the quantities being daily diagnosed should make alarm bell's go off at the methods used for testing & the results achieved by there method highly questionable to say the very least.
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 19 Dec 2009 02:26 #19

jack-mac wrote:
, The notion of them becoming insulin resistant in the quantities being daily diagnosed should make alarm bell's go off at the methods used for testing & the results achieved by there method highly questionable to say the very least.

Jack,

You have no idea how much sweet feed the hobby horse owners over here will feed thier pet horses. I had one horse founder recently and found the owners had been feeding the QH who did one ride a week 14 pounds/day of a 40% NSC sweet feed. When I questioned the wisdom of the trainer's recommended diet (who is also a purina representative) a new farrier was found who was OK with the feeding program.
George Spear
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".....and I said to the horse: Trust no man in whose eyes you do not see yourself reflected as an equal."
Don Vincenzo Giobbe
CA. 1700

"What people do not appreciate is that every time a horse submits to...
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 19 Dec 2009 02:48 #20

  • Gary Hill
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I find 40% abit high, if there is such a feed? Rocket Fuel for sure!:eek:
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 19 Dec 2009 09:46 #21

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Dances with Hooves wrote:
Jack,

You have no idea how much sweet feed the hobby horse owners over here will feed thier pet horses. I had one horse founder recently and found the owners had been feeding the QH who did one ride a week 14 pounds/day of a 40% NSC sweet feed. When I questioned the wisdom of the trainer's recommended diet (who is also a purina representative) a new farrier was found who was OK with the feeding program.
we have the same *****s over here, people who cant tell muscle from fat, & why because most of the fools judging horses theses days cant tell them self & hand out prize money & trophy's to the fattiest horse on show, you only have to look on some of theses horses forum to tell the so called experts wouldn't know poo from clay even if they went nose up in it,carbohydrates is but one of many things that will trigger laminitis ,protein over load or the wrong type will cause the same reaction just as fast but you wont find the feed company's funding that one for cause, there's to much money involved & they might have to start labeling what type of proteins make up the high crud % they tout that sell's it ,bottom line they are only triggers the real cause of the damage to the hoofs is something else ,& lets just say iv treated plenty but never had one of mine founder on me yet & have never restricted carbs & Iv owned plenty.
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 19 Dec 2009 13:49 #22

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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Interesting* perspective. I actually was employed for a lot of years by one of the large animal feed manufacturers. They not only funded research but they also undertook it .... extensively.... and in particular developed feed formula to contain the risks of such as laminitis. The problem isn't the feed manufacturers, it's owners who make incorrect purchasing choices and go on a single track feed regime.

IMO what we're seeing is a new and modern disease with fatal consequences and debilitating and painful symptoms. It's becoming inherent in the human population and contaminated and spread cross species to the horse population.

The disease is obesity!

Horses are genetically equipped and programmed for a lifestyle that humans too often find difficult to manage for themselves.

They need to work and keep fit and eat according to what they're doing and the conditions they're kept and rather than gorge feed, trickle feed. It's about balance and feeding accordingly.

Instead they've often kept by owners who are full of notions that food compensates for lack of time and attention. That no matter what else you do, there needs to be a routine of feeding.

Likewise there's absolutely nothing wrong per se with sugar and/or molasses in a horse's diet.

However folks need to be aware that it's about feeding appropriately to the work undertaken and the condition of the horse, the climate, how it's kept etc etc etc.

I'm always totally cynical about these "never feed this", "always feed that" comments.

Owners would be better being aware that it's about balance of diet and exercise. The likes of molasses far from being an evil is one of the best sources of good source of iron, vitamin B6, potassium, calcium, copper and magnesium.

Likewise sugar can be a valuable form of energy.

Regular readers of my postings will know I hate overfeeding horses and feed very little other than dry forage matter - so most of the year, most of the time, most of the ponies and horses get hay and restricted grass grazing and not a great deal else.

Recently though there's been lots of postings about sugar in feed and feeding the likes of sugar beet as if it's a panacea for all and everthing.

Its making me think that it seems that a lot of folks have gone totally bonkers or else just don't appreciate the facts. Many seem to believe that there's some things that are just totally forbidden and that a horse should never ever ever have and then on the other hand, some things that are totally o.k. and so are always safe.

Sugar and molasses seems to fall into the former category. And most oddly sugar beet seems to fall into the latter category: and often the people who are proponents for never having sugar or molasses in a horse's diet are all for liberally and generously feeding sugar beet (and anything with the word "lite", "low energy", "for laminitics" on the packet.)

Sugar beet, molasses and even grass and hay all contain sugar which can be turned to energy by the horse.

And so we do indeed all feed all horse's sugar.

Then lets turn to sugar beet. Despite being the waste left over from refining, sugar beet pulp contains a significant amount of sugar, which we use as an energy source. Note that a lot of beet pulp averages 10% sugar though with modern cultivars its not uncommon for it to be higher.

It can provide 2.86 megal calories/kg of energy and that is about as much energy per kilo as you would get from a kilo of poor to middling oats.

Molasses is another form of sugar usually from sugar cane but it can and is manufactured from sugar beet as well. Its also a concentrated energy source providing 2.5 Mcal/kg of energy. However its not fed in such large quantities as such as oats or beet pulp.

A lot of manufactured horse feed contains molasses for the following reasons:

- it reduces dust in coarse mix
- it has a sweet smell and gives a slight gloss to the surface of the other ingredients
- it aids the pelletising process
- it raises the energy value of the food
- it makes it palatable
- it contains many essential minerals, vitamins & electrolytes required for a horse

There are natural sources of sugars or carbohydrates in grass and some of these remain when its preserved and made into hay. The amount depends on the dry matter content of the grass and the type of grass and stage of growth its reached and the climate its grown in and when its cut.

Owners frequently talk about wanting an energy source that allows their horse to perform well, but not get fat or make him excitable.

There's not really such a thing as "non-heating" energy. If 2 foods have the same energy content - plus having the same bulk and palatability - they will have the same effect on the horse. However and to be really simplistic, some foods are more quickly digested and have different glycaemic indexes and produce peaks and troughs of insulin production.

In my mind the important thing is to have a well balanced diet and with a horse its to appreciate that they are trickle feeders and so should be fed little and often and they should be fed mainly a diet of forage and at a quantity appropriate to the size and type of the horse and what its doing and to keep it so its in good condition. So not obese and not skinny - so minimal cover and good musculature but no fat desposits and can feel its ribs if you lightly run your hand over his side and no bone protrosions and not able to see ribs. I've never had a horse that's insulin resistent, had ulcers, chronic colic etc etc etc and all those other "modern diseases".

I'm at a loss to understand why people think it's right and proper to gorge on great big meals. They do it themselves, they force it on their pets.

I'm mentoring a young lady who has exceedingly nice cleveland bay fillies and mares. She's recently changed her feed regime to what I do this time of year: "depends on the weather". Day like today.... -7 C and snow and she's supplementary hard feeding a barley mix with moasses diluted in warm water. If it's above freezing and dry as well as warmer tomorrow they'll get nothing but hay. Her horses are maintaining their condition - not running off and not weight gaining. They're also behaving better.

A valuable tool for any owner is time to ride and exercise the horse and a weight tape to monitor changes and if accompanied by a wall chart to track change over time and a huge dose of common sense there'd be a lot less horses with this killer disease and a lot less obesity in people and horses.

Health and fitness are the backbones of responsible horse care and should be every owner's priority.


* http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=54667&highlight=bizarre#post54667
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 19 Dec 2009 16:15 #23

  • irishcas
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jack-mac wrote:
I also feel you have a misunderstanding of what parts of the digestive tract takes up the majority of sugars,slow releasing carbohydrates up take is improved by soaking,horses are one of the most prolific produces of insulin ,

Now this is hilarious! Jack telling Katy she doesn't understand. Priceless.
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 19 Dec 2009 20:47 #24

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It's obvious to me she doesn't,but then i suppose she has never studied ketotic hypoglycemia in humans & different animal species.& carbohydrate up take.
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 20 Dec 2009 00:11 #25

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It's obvious to me she doesn't,but then i suppose she has never studied ketotic hypoglycemia in humans & different animal species.& carbohydrate up take.
You really do not have a clue what Katy has studied or with whom she has studied or collaborated. :rolleyes:
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 20 Dec 2009 02:00 #26

  • Katy Watts
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jack-mac wrote:
It's obvious to me she doesn't,but then i suppose she has never studied ketotic hypoglycemia in humans & different animal species.& carbohydrate up take.

Please cite a scientific source that horses get ketotic. Hypoglycemia is rare, and then temporary even in horses with insulin resistance. Lets have some science to back up your claims.
Katy
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
www.safergrass.org
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 20 Dec 2009 09:44 #27

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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jack-mac wrote:
It's obvious to me she doesn't,but then i suppose she has never studied ketotic hypoglycemia in humans & different animal species.& carbohydrate up take.
Not that this would have anything whatsoever to do with the topic in hand or even with horses! Whether she has or hasn't is a matter of your guesswork but totally and utterly irrelevent.

Whilst you're taking a pot shot at members educational knowledge and experience I must say that it's obvious to me that you've a way to go with communication skills and social interactive behaviour.

Perhaps once you've grasped and honed simple writing and spelling you could major on those?
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 20 Dec 2009 12:45 #28

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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Not that this would have anything whatsoever to do with the topic in hand or even with horses! Whether she has or hasn't is a matter of your guesswork but totally and utterly irrelevent.

Whilst you're taking a pot shot at members educational knowledge and experience I must say that it's obvious to me that you've a way to go with communication skills and social interactive behaviour.

Perhaps once you've grasped and honed simple writing and spelling you could major on those?
Well perhaps your right about my writing & spelling skill's , but then small things amuse small minds don't they Thomas with writing & spelling , but please don't take my word for it ,read up on the latest brain function studies ,know lets all go back to soaking hay , what a great pass time, never mind about slow or fast release carbohydrates & what part of the intestine & over what time frames there absorbed in to the blood stream,irrelevent is that even a word ? i thought it was irrelevant, but who am i to question some one who seems to grasp it well
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 20 Dec 2009 13:26 #29

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Katy Watts wrote:
Please cite a scientific source that horses get ketotic. Hypoglycemia is rare, and then temporary even in horses with insulin resistance. Lets have some science to back up your claims.
Katy
you need to read my post again & I could say the same to you lets see some "real science" to back up your claims on soaking hay other then some garbage recommendation .
.
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RE:New Study Questions Safety of Soaked Hay 20 Dec 2009 13:57 #30

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Katy, when you say " properly soak with lots of water" how much water are you talking about ?
Chris Schaeffner
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