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TOPIC: Steel Egg Bar

RE:Steel Egg Bar 08 Aug 2009 01:07 #31

  • afajmmcjf
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calshoer wrote:
"mechanics" That could mean anything.lets be more specific. The egg bar adds a lever arm out the back of the foot.
It moves the SUPPORT forces, (the ground reaction force) more caudally ,which can increase stresses in the heel buttresses of the foot itself.
That can lead to the eventual detriment of the foot if the heel buttresses of the foot are not also moved caudally via trimming them back.
An overgrown /underrun heel with an egg bar is a recipe for causing more caudal foot pain because of the increased force in the heel buttresses.particularly at landing when that bar hits the ground before the foot. The reason the egg bar works at first is because it keeps the heels up on the ground on landing instead of letting it sink down ,that's all.
An egg bar ,unless rolled or rockered, also does absolutely nothing to reduce the leverage forces on the toe at breakover,which will cause stress in the impar ligament ,navicular bone and coffin joint , all common factors in 'navicular syndrome'.
Patty
i guess I just have to jump in here.
Too much caudal extension is just as bad as too much anterior extension, long toe.
You need to get it just right. A good rule of thumb is to have an egg bar built to the drop of the bulbs of the heel and the toe pulled back so that the center of rotation of PIII is at the widest part of the hoof and shoe.
The key is to be able to see the foot under the leg without ignoring the hind end.
Many front leg problems are because the horse is not set up comfortable from back to front. Hind end impulsion is the key.
Hope this helps
Jack
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 08 Aug 2009 01:47 #32

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Jack thank you ,but none of that was anything I did not already know. Appreciate the thought though. And the COA and the COR maintain a position relationships with the widest part of the foot ,that is simple anatomy. But thanks,your information should help someone.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 08 Aug 2009 02:01 #33

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Jaye please do not ever take pictures from my website again and post anywhere out of the context in which they were used. They are copyrighted . If you would like to post a LINK to pictures in my site, fine. That said, the support in that foot with the NB shoe is centered around the COA because the breakover point was brought back. Just like I explained. So what is your point about it?

As for your hunter...... so what? It means nothing to this discussion because I agreed that egg bars get results. I just said they were rarely necessary if the pother foot capsule mechanics were addressed. Who is to say that horse couldn't have won wearing some other kind of shoeing? :)
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 08 Aug 2009 02:18 #34

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.
I always back up my words w/ facts. BTW, you still have the little red book. Study it and you will find the numbers
Well you already got caught here twisting one author's statements , so it seems your "facts" were a little misuderstood. So, since I cited page numbers so you could verify my quote, please do the same.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 08 Aug 2009 03:06 #35

Phil Armitage wrote:
The problem is a proper diagnosis. Egg bars may do the trick, however it depends on a lot of variables. If the horse is sore to frog pressure for whatever reason, egg bars will probably provide relief, however you may see problems in the hoof caused by pressure into the heels down the road. A straight bar, hard pad, full wedge pad, sigafoos glueon, rim pads, thicker shoe may also give you the same results. I think it is difficult to tell what is providing relief, when you put everything into a shoeing package, such as a rolled or rockered toe, NB shoe, easing breakover by setting the shoes back and adding a very protective plastic pad. Could just be the pad. :rolleyes:
And maybe has something to do with the capabilities that an individual has ,making, shaping, trimming, fitting, IMO, I agree Phil, depends on the Diagnoses, and the other,variables.
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 08 Aug 2009 10:32 #36

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And maybe has something to do with the capabilities that an individual has ,making, shaping, trimming, fitting, (Jake)



Spot on
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 08 Aug 2009 11:39 #37

smitty88 wrote:
And maybe has something to do with the capabilities that an individual has ,making, shaping, trimming, fitting, (Jake)



Spot on

Yep, I think so to. It is my goal to make decent bar shoes. I see a lot of advantages to having that skill. Have to make one to pass the AFA CJF test. Must be a good reason this requirement is still around.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 08 Aug 2009 11:58 #38

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Phil Armitage wrote:
Yep, I think so to. It is my goal to make decent bar shoes. I see a lot of advantages to having that skill. Have to make one to pass the AFA CJF test. Must be a good reason this requirement is still around.


I make them to keep horses happy
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 08 Aug 2009 22:00 #39

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I have seen a number of 'happy horses' with egg bars initially only to see these horses get unhappy later down the road. I often have wondered if the egg bar works better during motion and rapidly unloads the deep flexor as it catches the ground during deceleration and then drops the toe down more quickly than the toe would normally drop without the extended bar behind the heel. 9this action may also decelerate the hoof too fast in some cases) With the frog suspended in the air and the bar causing a lifting force upward into the angle of the heel, I would expect the heel angle to decrease under this force thus 'crushing' the heel over time unless the heel structure is strong enough to counteract this force. I have seen far too many egg bars used on elongated toe/underrun heel horses to severe detriment. These are all personal observations and theories but the geometry and physics woulod seem to bear this out.

On the last posted radiograph, the lower conical navicular lesions have not been shown to correlate with pain in Dr. Tracey's research. I have not found these or cystic lesions top correlate with pain in my experience either. The upper red arrow is pointing to the shadow of the sulcus alongside the frog. The very good skyline view again shows widened vascular channels which do not correlate with hoof pain and the flexor surface of the bone appears smooth. I would continue to look for sources of pain in this hoof other than these lesions.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 09 Aug 2009 02:34 #40

  • Jaye Perry
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calshoer-Jaye please do not ever take pictures from my website again and post anywhere out of the context in which they were used.They are Copyright ed

Photo was taken from another website, not yours inparticular; the photo had no trademark signature. Your pics are our there, ya just have to hunt for them. Fairgame IMO for the context of "support".



.....That said, the support in that foot with the NB shoe is centered around the COA because the breakover point was brought back. Just like I explained. So what is your point about it?

Context of heel support; again context was missed.
As for your hunter...... so what? It means nothing to this discussion because I agreed that egg bars get results. I just said they were rarely necessary if the pother foot capsule mechanics were addressed. Who is to say that horse couldn't have won wearing some other kind of shoeing? :)

The hunter is sound and is winning again, That's What! In Aluminum Eggbars.

Again your vision of competive, high mileage horses that jump is very narrow. BTW, you mentioned Ireland , eggbars and that enviroment. Forgiving ground and the such. Not the unforgiving ground in Colorado; I know about the ground there; had 45 head showing there last year, '08.
So we can make an assimulation to the horses I shoe; groomed show grounds from Florida to indoors at Harrisburg and other comparable venues/ versus arid Colorado.

the footing is 'forgiving'; so let's see what the Good Doctors have to say about soft or forgiving surfaces,
Chateau H, Degueurce C, Denoix JM
UMR INRA-ENVA de Biomécanique et Pathologie Locomotrice du Cheval, Ecole Nationale Vétérinaire d'Alfort, 7, Avenue du Géneral du Gaulle, 94704 Maisons-Alfort, France

REASONS FOR PERFORMING STUDY: Understanding of the biomechanical effects of egg-bar shoes remains incomplete because kinematic studies are usually performed on hard tracks and with skin markers that do not measure the actual 3-dimensional (3D) movements of the 3 digital joints. OBJECTIVE: To quantify the effects of egg-bar shoes on the 3D kinematics of the distal forelimb in horses walking on a sand track. METHODS: Four healthy horses were equipped with ultrasonic markers fixed surgically to the 4 distal segments of the left forelimb. The 3D movements of these segments were recorded while the horses were walking on a sand track. Rotations of the digital joints were calculated by use of a joint coordinate system. Data obtained with egg-bar shoes were compared to those obtained with standard shoes. Mean differences were expressed in a 0.95 confidence interval. RESULTS: With egg-bar shoes, the initial sinking of the heels into the ground during landing was reduced and the heels were raised by up to 5.1 degrees (3.5-6.7 degrees) compared to standard shoes at mid-stance. Concurrently, maximal flexion of the distal (DIPJ) and proximal (PIPJ) interphalangeal joints was increased by up to 3.2 degrees (2.2-4.2 degrees) and 1.8 degrees (1.1-2.5 degrees), respectively, at the beginning of the stance phase. At heel-off, extension of the DIPJ was reduced by 3.8 degrees (2.6-5.0 degrees). In extrasagittal planes of movement, egg-bar shoes prevented sinking of the medial quarter into the ground which led to a slight decrease of DIPJ medial rotation and lateromotion. CONCLUSIONS: Egg-bar shoes prevent the heels and, to a lesser extent, the medial side of the hoof from sinking into the ground on a sand track. They contribute to a decrease of DIPJ maximal extension at heel-off and to hoof stabilisation in the transversal plane. POTENTIAL RELEVANCE: Such quantitative results support the clinical indications of egg-bar shoes.
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 09 Aug 2009 02:59 #41

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mwmyersdvm-I have seen a number of 'happy horses' with egg bars initially only to see these horses get unhappy later down the road.

Smitty's eight year trilogy with eggbars seems to me a pretty good run.



I often have wondered if the egg bar works better during motion and rapidly unloads the deep flexor as it catches the ground during deceleration and then drops the toe down more quickly than the toe would normally drop without the extended bar behind the heel. 9this action may also decelerate the hoof too fast in some cases) With the frog suspended in the air and the bar causing a lifting force upward into the angle of the heel, I would expect the heel angle to decrease under this force thus 'crushing' the heel over time unless the heel structure is strong enough to counteract this force. I have seen far too many egg bars used on elongated toe/underrun heel horses to severe detriment. These are all personal observations and theories but the geometry and physics woulod seem to bear this out.

See previous post to Patty.
On the last posted radiograph, the lower conical navicular lesions have not been shown to correlate with pain in Dr. Tracey's research. I have not found these or cystic lesions top correlate with pain in my experience either. The upper red arrow is pointing to the shadow of the sulcus alongside the frog. The very good skyline view again shows widened vascular channels which do not correlate with hoof pain and the flexor surface of the bone appears smooth. I would continue to look for sources of pain in this hoof other than these lesions.

"Inflammation of the distal interphalageal joint is common in jumping horses and results in subtle lameness....... Radiogrpahic changes maybe absent or subtle however chronic and severe cases.... there will be prominent radiolucent areas representing synovila invagnination(form a hollow space within a previously solid structure) on the distal borders of the navicular bone."
~~~In other words bone loss of the navicular bone, fulcrum point of the DDFT in the foot.~~


Lameness in the Show hunter and Show Jumper~~ Distal Interphalangeal joint Synovitis and Early Osteoarthritis; Lameness in the Sport Horse.
Lameness in the Horse, Ross and Dyson.


M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

IMO, a vet that hangs some of his medical relevancy on the "Nolan Hoof Plate"` without peer reviewed research.
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 09 Aug 2009 03:00 #42

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calshoer wrote:
.Well you already got caught here twisting one author's statements , so it seems your "facts" were a little misuderstood. So, since I cited page numbers so you could verify my quote, please do the same.


I made ya LOOK IT UP! HA!:cool::cool::cool::p
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 09 Aug 2009 03:21 #43

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Jaye , got your panties all in a wad tonight? :D
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 09 Aug 2009 04:36 #44

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Anyway to keep on topic.

I dont use many egg bars at all right now. Mostly because theres not much of a need on my books at the moment. I have an older jumper in a pair of AL egg bars w/ equipak. He seems to really like them and comes off the fence with much more confidence than he did in ssp's with equipak.

I think egg bars have a place, especially with FT issues and the like. But they do change the GRF too the distal limb. Thats not always a bad thing.
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 09 Aug 2009 08:54 #45

Ray_Knightley wrote:
What does the steel egg bar really do??
what do they reduce or stop??
The question is maybe the way to know with which cases regarding Navicular the shoe has possitive effects..

They increase the support length.


Ronald Aalders
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