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TOPIC: Steel Egg Bar

RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 03:06 #16

  • calshoer
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I explained my ideas about the forces of an egg bar on the hoof capsule quite plainly. Apparently you disagree, but you refuse to state exactly why. So now, please answer my questions as to why you disagree, in mechanical terms. Or don't waste any more of everyone's time .
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 03:08 #17

  • Jaye Perry
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FWIW,

"The distal sesamoidean impar ligament"

"The lesions of the DSIL have not been well documented. It is NOT possible to differeniate scingraphilly(MRI recently) because of the close anatomicl proximity; the only viable view of a injured Impar Ligament is endoscopy............"



from the little red book you own and other researched indenties.....
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 03:09 #18

  • Jaye Perry
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calshoer wrote:
I explained my ideas about the forces of an egg bar on the hoof capsule quite plainly. Apparently you disagree, but you refuse to state exactly why. So now, please answer my questions as to why you disagree, in mechanical terms. Or don't waste any more of everyone's time .


I don't waste time. You waste time with banter and no researchable facts.

BTW, never said I disagree; your perception:rolleyes:
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 03:33 #19

  • calshoer
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HERE Jaye, from the same book.....page 428 ....

" magnetic resonance Imaging (MRI) has given us a superior diagnostic tool to image soft tissue structures of the foot. The recent use of MRI in equine lameness problems has has allowed us to gain valuable insight into the pathologic problems occurring in horses with palmer foot pain .MRI is particularly useful in the recognition of abnormally high signal (fluid) in the structures if the DDFT, IL.and collateral ligaments. With MRI we are also able to detect navicular bone edema as well as articular cartilage damage in the navicular region.
In one study, 18 horses with unilateral or bilateral palmer foot pain without radiographic or sonographic abnormalities underwent MRI evaluation.
Primary lesions involving the DDFT were found in 7 horses, 2 had DIP joint cartilage or subchondral bone problems (determined by increased fluid within the bone itself) and 2 had IL lesions . MRI seems to be the most sensitive tool for detection of soft tissue injuries in the foot region of the horse."


Jaye , in at least that study 2 out of 18 is a bit more than .0004 percent. And MRI is, according to that author (same book) a good tool for finding it.

Now.... you still have not addressed how the mechanics of egg bars apply here. Care to try discussing that ?
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 03:38 #20

cowboyshoer22 wrote:
I have not encountered very many navicular horses so I dont really know the best shoeing options. Has anybody had success from just steel egg bar shoes? I know the heels need to be brought back and I was thinking this was the shoe for the job. And if so is there anything special I need to do to fit them properly. Also are clips needed? Open to any suggestions.

The problem is a proper diagnosis. Egg bars may do the trick, however it depends on a lot of variables. If the horse is sore to frog pressure for whatever reason, egg bars will probably provide relief, however you may see problems in the hoof caused by pressure into the heels down the road. A straight bar, hard pad, full wedge pad, sigafoos glueon, rim pads, thicker shoe may also give you the same results. I think it is difficult to tell what is providing relief, when you put everything into a shoeing package, such as a rolled or rockered toe, NB shoe, easing breakover by setting the shoes back and adding a very protective plastic pad. Could just be the pad. :rolleyes:
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 03:43 #21

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Oh Jaye, you also took the Dyson -Marks cite from page 537 totally out of context and mis quoted them.
They actually say that scintigraphy and endoscopy did not offer good views of the impar ligament but that enlargement of the ligament and a 'bright signal ' had been seen in 4 lame horses.

In other words, the MRI showed the ligament better than the other methods.

And that was way back before 2003 when that book was published. You either mis read or mis interpreted it.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 03:45 #22

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egg bars will probably provide relief, however you may see problems in the hoof caused by pressure into the heels down the road.
THANK YOU PHIL!

..........now we'll ask Jaye if he agrees or not. ;)
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 04:19 #23

Mrs. Patty,

Just a singal question, I am not trying to step on toes or anything of that nature but from reading posts previously and on several different threads I have to wonder.....Do you thank the only way to shoe a horse is with the NB protocol for every problem that affects equine feet and locomotion?


Just curious

Thanks
Randy Autrey
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 04:37 #24

  • calshoer
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I did not mention NB anywhere in this thread, did I?
I am simply discussing the need (or lack thereof) for an egg bar when the foot is trimmed to optimize the caudal foot function and breakover eased, to reduce the toe leverage forces that cause the navicular issues.
Pure mechanics.
If you feel that that getting good foot mechanics constitutes NB, then then I suppose that is what NB is. I can't help that . . :)
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 06:10 #25

  • smitty88
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That horse has navicular i posted
i had normal front shoes on him

was not to happy
is going good with the egg bars

you can talk all day about this and that
the the client is happy and more important

the horse is happy
i dont make and fit egg-bars for the crack of it



here is one i done some days ago
no heel flat foot
you dont get much to take off
he has nav he is 8 years now shod with egg-bars
he is doing fine
Smitty88
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 14:23 #26

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Smitty your work is far better than most, particularly the trimming. Many farriers miss the trim completely and rely on just the shoe, thereby causing secondary problems later on. In your area where it is probably wet and softer the egg bars probably are a good assist in keeping the heels from sinking in and breaking back the coffin joint angle at impact. So I'm not condemning egg bars ,they do serve useful purpose in SOME cases. They are just not very necessary in most.

One other reason besides keeping the heel out of the ground in regards to why so many farriers see results with egg bars is the distance from center of articulation of the coffin joint to breakover point. If the toe is fit with a perimeter fit, flat shoe (no roll or rocker), then the egg bar helps equalize the distance from the COA rearward.
In other words it balances out the ground surface loading forces around the center of articulation of the coffin joint. That's another reason it gets results.
So If the farrier were to move the move the breakover point back, then he/she would not need need that extra length of shoe out the back of the foot to balance it out .

I am just trying to get people to think more about the internal structures involved in navicular area pain and think about correcting it more from the hoof capsule aspect instead of just the shoe, and thereby help prevent secondary capsule problems caused by the shoe.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 17:13 #27

  • Ray_Knightley
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The benifits of egg bars are when fitted to anyone case .when then that animal becomes sound...
The thing we learn here is that the shoe helps the hoof from wipping back down into the arena surface when ridden ....It was a fad here all owners wanted egg bars front and hind for sometime ....the arenas have got better in a whole now so the shoe has almost gone apart from some where it is used and helps..
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 17:21 #28

  • smitty88
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Ray,
do you have any horses in egg-bars at the moment?
Smitty88
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 19:33 #29

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smitty88 wrote:
Ray,
do you have any horses in egg-bars at the moment?

...Yes one pony ..and one arab with an open toe, well a reverse shoe really....
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RE:Steel Egg Bar 07 Aug 2009 20:35 #30

  • Jaye Perry
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calshoer..... In your area where it is probably wet and softer the egg bars probably are a good assist in keeping the heels from sinking in and breaking back the coffin joint angle at impact. ...

thought that happened at load and mid-stance
One other reason besides keeping the heel out of the ground in regards to why so many farriers see results with egg bars is the distance from center of articulation of the coffin joint to breakover point. If the toe is fit with a perimeter fit, flat shoe (no roll or rocker), then the egg bar helps equalize the distance from the COA rearward.

Somebody mentioned the same in a pithy reply. " Moves force mechanics more caudal"


In other words it balances out the ground surface loading forces around the center of articulation of the coffin joint. That's another reason it gets results.
So If the farrier were to move the move the breakover point back, then he/she would not need need that extra length of shoe out the back of the foot to balance it out .

hmmm......no support like this :





I am just trying to get people to think more about the internal structures involved in navicular area pain and think about correcting it more from the hoof capsule aspect instead of just the shoe, and thereby help prevent secondary capsule problems caused by the shoe.

Wonder if the structures are already compromised like these; the application of eggbars on this horse won many Hunter Classics:



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