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TOPIC: your thoughts on these x rays

RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 01:06 #61

  • randwick
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Hi Rick,
well if the frog pressure is not what is causing the DDFT to relax the pressure and pull on the coffin bone then tell me what it is that is causing the rotation to stop and reverse, as i said i have done this procedure on many severe laminitis cases over the past 45 years and had great success with it i am not real big with words but I do know what works......Cecil Hancock
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 01:21 #62

  • randwick
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reillyshoe wrote:
I don't think the idea of frog pressure reducing DDFT strain makes much sense. Heart bars might work for other reasons (not all of the time), but this claim seems a stretch.

Hi patrick,
you could be right, but we all have our own ideas why things work the way they do I have worked with Professors and several qualified veterinarians and explained my thoughts on this subject, they did not think it was a stretch.......... Cecil Hancock
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 01:23 #63

  • reillyshoe
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“The treatment of Laminitis is probably more varied than of any other disease, and yet a large number of cases recover for even the poorest practitioner” –A.A. Holcombe,D.V.S.(U.S. Department of Agriculture Special Report on Diseases of the Horse, 1916)

Cecil,
This quote is not a comment on anyone's shoeing, but everyone has some success with laminitis, and yet it is still the second leading cause of death on horses.

You notice I asked you how you think it worked, I am just trying to understand your thought process. No offense, but I still don't buy the mechanism you suggest, at least as you have explained it.
P
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 01:45 #64

  • randwick
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Hi patrick,
well we each have our own ideas as to what works and how, i do not claim to be the world's best but i have had a lot of success with laminitis even cases where the bone was out of the sole, the one thing i can tell you is time is of the utmost importance if one can get to work on the equine with in the first 24 hours the cure rate is in the high 90 % range, as for how it works if the DDTF no longer pulls on the pedal bone causing more rotation then what i have done has stoped it..........Cecil Hancock.
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 01:53 #65

  • reillyshoe
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The question Cecil, is what percent of all laminitis cases get better if we nail shoes on upside down within the first 24 hours. It stands to reason that many of these horses will get better regardless of which treatment we employ.
The trick is understanding why we do what we do.
P
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 02:02 #66

  • randwick
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Patrick, I know and understand why and what I do and why i get the results i do i am sorry if what i posted has not helped you i will post no more. Cecil Hancock
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 02:10 #67

  • solidrockshoer
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reillyshoe wrote:
The question Cecil, is what percent of all laminitis cases get better if we nail shoes on upside down within the first 24 hours.

Is it? Or is it who can make the animal more comfortable while/ if he recovers.
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 02:23 #68

  • reillyshoe
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Comfort definitely helps, and results are important. Understanding the effects of our treatments can only make us better. Remember, I did not suggest that Cecil treat horses differently, I only questioned what he thinks is occurring and why. Fair?
P
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 02:35 #69

  • Jay Mickle
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Establishing cause and effect vs coincidence:
A scientist was studying the effect of leg removal on spiders. The spider's task was to jump over a small object on the command "Spider, jump!" The scientist removed the spider's legs 1 at a time and found that the spider easily jumped with 7 or 6 legs, but had progressive difficulty with each sequential removal of a leg. Finally, after removal of all 8 legs, the scientist commanded "Spider, jump!" in an increasingly loud voice, but the spider's body did not move. The scientist dutifully marked in his laboratory notebook: "Removal of eighth leg: spider goes deaf."
Jay Mickle
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 02:41 #70

  • solidrockshoer
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Jay Mickle wrote:
Establishing cause and effect vs coincidence:
A scientist was studying the effect of leg removal on spiders. The spider's task was to jump over a small object on the command "Spider, jump!" The scientist removed the spider's legs 1 at a time and found that the spider easily jumped with 7 or 6 legs, but had progressive difficulty with each sequential removal of a leg. Finally, after removal of all 8 legs, the scientist commanded "Spider, jump!" in an increasingly loud voice, but the spider's body did not move. The scientist dutifully marked in his laboratory notebook: "Removal of eighth leg: spider goes deaf."


Damn it! You heard that joke on the golf course didn't you? I knew I should've moved down your way. :)
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 02:44 #71

  • Jay Mickle
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Eric Russell wrote:
Damn it! You heard that joke on the golf course didn't you? I knew I should've moved down your way. :)

Play golf all day, drink beer, tell jokes and get paid fortunes for very little work. Ain't the South great.:rolleyes:;)
Jay Mickle
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 10:59 #72

  • Jaye Perry
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randwick wrote:
it relaxes the pull of the tendon by the amount of pressure placed on the frog, when you place your shoe on a flat surface the point of pressure should show 1/4 of an inch gap between the sole pressure and the point of the frog pressure and its the frog pressure that relaxes the pull of the deep flexor tendon. Cecil hancock.

What relaxes is the pain response to the flexor muscle which is attached to the DDFT when one "floats the solar portion of the toe between the shoe and sole.

Pain reflex contracts the muscle.

Most any application of an appliance that relives pressure in the anterior portion of a foot in laminitic episode will do the same.:rolleyes:
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 13:20 #73

  • Rick Burten
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randwick wrote:
Hi Rick,
well if the frog pressure is not what is causing the DDFT to relax the pressure and pull on the coffin bone then tell me what it is that is causing the rotation to stop and reverse,
Hello Cecil,

To be honest, I don't know. Nor do I know if the rotation is truly reversed or if it is that over time, the hoof capsule remodels around the new spatial orientation that p3 has assumed. What I do know is that if the hoof is in an unstable state, then a frog plate won't be able to overcome the pull of gravity, the pull of the DFT, nor the weight of the horse descending on the pedal bone. I also know that when this occurs, in the absence of any other remedial efforts, the live sole/digital cushion and related structures get caught between the frog plate and/or the descending bony column(through its terminus at the bottom of p3) and the outcome is usually tissue death/[pressure] necrosis.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that there are only a few ways to relax the pull of the DFT, and all involve either a tenotomy or mechanically reducing the tension/contraction of the deep flexor muscle(s).

I am quite interested in your hypothesis as to why the application of a frog plate, in and of itself, reduces the pull of the DFT on the coffin bone.
as i said i have done this procedure on many severe laminitis cases over the past 45 years and had great success with it i am not real big with words but I do know what works......Cecil Hancock
As a percentage of the whole, what is your success rate and approximately, how many cases does this number involve?

On those occasions where your protocol is not successful(if there are any), what is your next step in treating the pathology?

To insure that we are discussing the same pathology, does your use of the term 'laminitis' equate to what I and many others refer to as 'founder'(the crippled condition that results when the laminae disinterdigitate and the coffin bone sinks, rotates or both, often in the presence of capsular rotation away from proper orientation with the dorsal surface of p3)?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 13:27 #74

  • Rick Burten
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randwick wrote:
Patrick, I know and understand why and what I do and why i get the results i do i am sorry if what i posted has not helped you i will post no more. Cecil Hancock
Cecil,

All we are asking is for you to explain to us why, in your understanding, you get the results you get eg: the science/physics behind your knowledge.

I hope you will continue this discussion because it benefits all of us.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 22 May 2010 20:34 #75

  • scruggs1
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randwick wrote:
Hi Rick,
....then tell me what it is that is causing the rotation to stop...

Well, if you just want a specific answer, it is the reestablishment of tissue inhibitors of metalloproteinases in the check and balance system of TIMMP's vs. MMP's which allow the hoof wall to grown down and maintain their attachment to the distal phalanx.

Until this process occurs (usually within 24-72 hours) anything that attempts to mechanically prevent distal migration compromises the prognosis...especially something that localizes those pressures to a specific area like the frog. Foam, sand, impression material, etc. do not stop the process either, they distribute the ground pressures more evenly across the entire solar surface. Nailing a heart bar to an actively rotating foot is the mechanical equivalent of trying to strangle someone in the process of having a stroke to keep the clot from going further.

(sorry Rick, Patrick, and Jaye...you only need to give so much rope)
Scruggs Farrier Service
John Scruggs, CJF
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