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TOPIC: your thoughts on these x rays

RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 11:46 #106

  • Jaye Perry
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reillyshoe wrote:
Mr. Perry,
The study concluded that the change in hoof position occurred at impact due due the increase in surface area differences created by the shoe. A stall generally has a deformable surface, and the caudal surface area of the heart bar shoe is even greater than that of an egg bar shoe. The mechanical situations are related if not totally analogous.
I think we have all seen a laminitic horse standing in soft footing with the heels banked with any shoe/trim, but it is possible that a shoe with more caudal surface area would make this easier. This has nothing to do with frog pressure, just the characteristics of the shoe.

Mr. O'Rielly, CJF*, again an extrapolation. Denoix's horses didn't have Laminitis. Nor did they have heartbar shoes applied.
But , playing along with you, "banked footings" indicates seeking relief of DDFT pull; any caudual support across the heels being it putty and tape, wood, or shoe would achieve the same effect, i.e.- not sinking into the footings.
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 11:56 #107

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Agreed Mr. Perry. For future reference it is Dr. O'Reilly, CJF to you.
P
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 12:12 #108

reillyshoe wrote:
Mr. Armitage,
The point you just made is commonly accepted, but has not been studied. The keratinized hoof capsule is one joined piece. Does removing loading force from the hoofwall reduce lammellar strain or not?

There have been studies confirming that heart bar shoes reduce load on the hoofwall as pressure on the frog is increased. No amount of pressure will prevent P3 decent in the hoof capsule during loading.

Interestingly, frog pressure resulted in movement of P3 in a palmar direction, which seems counter-intuitive, but that is another story...

Pat, horses do tell us a lot. As we attempt to get them comfortable words may not come out, but the the body language is there. Problem some people have is taking what they have to say for granted or don't speak horse. Personally I think listening to the horse is extremely important. We talk a lot about studies, proof, Vet, farrier and owner team work, but how many pay attention to what the horse is saying?

I mean no disrespect, just think this is important.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 12:30 #109

  • Rick Burten
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Gentlemen,

This is a great discussion. I still don't see how a heart bar shoe, in the absence of any other mechanical intervention can/will reduce the pre-existant tension of the DDFT, especially on a deformable surface. After all, were that the case, would it not stand to reason that there would be no need for tenotomies as a part of the 'salvage operation'? That said, I can see where the heart bar shoe could create a static situation where the would be no increase in the static tension on deformable ground. However, that would assume that the bony column/p3 was stable in the first place, for as Pat has so correctly pointed out, no frog plate is going to keep the bony column/p3 from descending if the hoof capsule is unstable. Is this not yet another esxample of "It Depends"? :)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 12:52 #110

Rick Burten wrote:
Gentlemen,

This is a great discussion. I still don't see how a heart bar shoe, in the absence of any other mechanical intervention can/will reduce the pre-existant tension of the DDFT, especially on a deformable surface. After all, were that the case, would it not stand to reason that there would be no need for tenotomies as a part of the 'salvage operation'?

Maybe because my experience with laminitis from mild to severe rotation and sinkers out in the country working for the average horse owners in a non clinical environment, tenotomies have never been mentioned or performed. We just do what we can be it barefoot, wooden clogs, NB, heartbars, glueons, IM, frog support pads, hope and a prayer with a very high success rate. Your right it depends.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 14:56 #111

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Phil Armitage wrote:
...helps manage the pain. This along with pain meds will help relax the muscle head and reduce the pull of the DDFT on P3.

Mr. Armitage,

I still do not understand, nor do I ever recall reading, a direct relationship between an increase in pain causing an increase in muscle contraction within the same musculotendinous unit...nor an increase in pain in one area causing an increase in contraction resulting in an increase in the pain response to the area in question. As such, I find no correlation with a decrease in pain causing muscle relaxation. As I understand it, if the pain response required an increase in muscular contraction either in or into the offending pathology, once laminar disruption initiated the pain response, the ddft would increase its contractile force, which would increase the pain response, which would increase the contractile force, etc. until either P3 were completely removed from the capsule, the ddft ruptured, or the ddf ruptured...regardless, it would be a positive feedback snowball effect rendering the horse fit for euthanasia shortly after the first hint of pain. Can you re-read my paragraph #2 from above and tell me where you feel I am in error? Thanks!
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 20:30 #112

scruggs1 wrote:
Mr. Armitage,

I still do not understand, nor do I ever recall reading, a direct relationship between an increase in pain causing an increase in muscle contraction within the same musculotendinous unit...nor an increase in pain in one area causing an increase in contraction resulting in an increase in the pain response to the area in question. As such, I find no correlation with a decrease in pain causing muscle relaxation. As I understand it, if the pain response required an increase in muscular contraction either in or into the offending pathology, once laminar disruption initiated the pain response, the ddft would increase its contractile force, which would increase the pain response, which would increase the contractile force, etc. until either P3 were completely removed from the capsule, the ddft ruptured, or the ddf ruptured...regardless, it would be a positive feedback snowball effect rendering the horse fit for euthanasia shortly after the first hint of pain. Can you re-read my paragraph #2 from above and tell me where you feel I am in error? Thanks!

I take it you never experienced severe pain.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 22:38 #113

  • Jaye Perry
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scruggs1 wrote:
Mr. Armitage,

I still do not understand, nor do I ever recall reading, a direct relationship between an increase in pain causing an increase in muscle contraction within the same musculotendinous unit...nor an increase in pain in one area causing an increase in contraction resulting in an increase in the pain response to the area in question. As such, I find no correlation with a decrease in pain causing muscle relaxation. As I understand it, if the pain response required an increase in muscular contraction either in or into the offending pathology, once laminar disruption initiated the pain response, the ddft would increase its contractile force, which would increase the pain response, which would increase the contractile force, etc. until either P3 were completely removed from the capsule, the ddft ruptured, or the ddf ruptured...regardless, it would be a positive feedback snowball effect rendering the horse fit for euthanasia shortly after the first hint of pain. Can you re-read my paragraph #2 from above and tell me where you feel I am in error? Thanks!

One doesn't spend all their time on their feet? Horses do for the most part.

Muscle and muscliotio-tendinous are connected, thus experiemental Botox injections into flexor muscles.

Sunday I will frog your Deltiod, left, muscles about 175 times and see if th next morning your arm can extend:p:D
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 22:39 #114

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Pulled groin...modified stance and motion to keep the offending adductors from contracting.

Threw out my rotator cuff...did everything I could to immobilize the shoulder.

Broken finger...modified use to keep from moving it.

Strained back a few times so badly that it hurt to take deep breaths, cough, or sneeze...did everything I could to prevent using it.

Sprinkle in a bladder hydrodistention (that also severed my urethra during the procedure), hitting myself in the shin with a sledgehammer, three concussions mostly irrelevant to this analogy, a couple outpatient surgeries, torn ligaments in wrist, an arthritic knuckle, some fairly deep cuts in various places, and some nasty motocross wrecks. Overall, I have been relatively lucky and my experiences mild compared to some of the horror stories many others here have experienced, but I have had enough to know how my body reacts to the pain response.

In none of those cases do I ever recall the involved muscle groups involuntarily contracting to exacerbate the pain and/or aggravate them...nor do I recall deliberately trying to contract muscles in effort to increase the pain sensations. In all of those applicable cases, other muscle groups increased their work load to make up for the loss of utility of the offending...and to keep the offending relaxed...maybe my neurological function is an evolutionary anomaly...

I earnestly welcome any contrary information you may have that will detail how a pain response is accompanied by an increase in muscular contraction within or into the offending tissue.
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John Scruggs, CJF
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 22:46 #115

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Rick Burten-This is a great discussion. I still don't see how a heart bar shoe, in the absence of any other mechanical intervention can/will reduce the pre-existant tension of the DDFT,

Which foot recieves the most damage? The high heeled.

The low heeled foot either sinks medially(mostly) or streching into the LTLH situation w/ 1/2" to 1" of dead laminae.


especially on a deformable surface. After all, were that the case, would it not stand to reason that there would be no need for tenotomies as a part of the 'salvage operation'?

3 cases- not enough expeirences except wedging them sux.


That said, I can see where the heart bar shoe could create a static situation where the would be no increase in the static tension on deformable ground. However, that would assume that the bony column/p3 was stable in the first place,

There in lies Cecil's success, "is the horse better" after his first 24 hours or the first 24 hours w/vets invovled?

Acute and chronic phases are different and require different modalities,IMO.



for as Pat has so correctly pointed out, no frog plate is going to keep the bony column/p3 from descending if the hoof capsule is unstable. Is this not yet another esxample of "It Depends"? :)

Dr. O'Rielly CJF* can be correct in some cases and completely wrong in others. Me, I can walk/stand on water when axxske' to!:p
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 22:50 #116

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Jaye Perry wrote:
Muscle and muscliotio-tendinous are connected, thus experiemental Botox injections into flexor muscles.

But the botox injections simply inhibit the receptors involved in the contraction process. The horse obviously has to move in order to stay alive. This motion requires a series of contractions, the botox just inhibits the contraction of whatever muscle head it is injected to...the pain response itself does not illicit automatic contraction.

Jaye Perry wrote:
Sunday I will frog your Deltiod, left, muscles about 175 times and see if th next morning your arm can extend:p:D

A perfect example! If this is done, is my deltoid going to spontaneously contract because of the pain response? If it does, I will walk around the rest of the day showing off my armpit because my arm will be involuntarily raised over my head as it continues to contract in response to the increase in pain caused by that contraction. I'm thinking more along the lines of immobilization in effort to prevent that contraction. :D:p
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John Scruggs, CJF
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 22:57 #117

  • Jaye Perry
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scruggs1;-But the botox injections simply inhibit the receptors involved in the contraction process

And the "contraction process" is due from WHAT? Movement or pain in circumstance.



. The horse obviously has to move in order to stay alive.

Predatory response


This motion requires a series of contractions, the botox just inhibits the contraction of whatever muscle head it is injected to...the pain response itself does not illicit automatic contraction.

We will see:cool:


A perfect example! If this is done, is my deltoid going to spontaneously contract because of the pain response? If it does, I will walk around the rest of the day showing off my armpit because my arm will be involuntarily raised over my head as it continues to contract in response to the increase in pain caused by that contraction. I'm thinking more along the lines of immobilization in effort to prevent that contraction.:p:D

Notice i said, "left". I need your hammer arm. Purrington has done a good job with just his right arm.:cool:
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 28 May 2010 23:04 #118

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Jaye Perry wrote:
And the "contraction process" is due from WHAT? Movement or pain.

So if I pick up a hot shoe, instead of going away from the pain response, I am supposed to squeeze it harder and harder in order to contract into the pain response? I must REALLY be wired backward! :D


Jaye Perry wrote:
Notice i said, "left". I need your hammer arm. Purrington has done a good job with just his right arm.:cool:

I am going to get up in the morning and make the shoes while it is cool.
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John Scruggs, CJF
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 29 May 2010 00:48 #119

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scruggs1-So if I pick up a hot shoe, instead of going away from the pain response, I am supposed to squeeze it harder and harder in order to contract into the pain response? I must REALLY be wired backward! :D


Pain has a definite repsonse code(s) to the brain, passive or active.

As in humans, horses are alike~~~ some are "princess(es) and the pea(s)" or John Wayne. :cool:
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RE:your thoughts on these x rays 29 May 2010 01:30 #120

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Jaye Perry wrote:
Pain has a definite repsonse code(s) to the brain, passive or active.

As in humans, horses are alike~~~ some are "princess(es) and the pea(s)" or John Wayne. :cool:

Absolutely. Preservation of life requires avoiding the pain response. Certainly, there is muscular contraction either reflex and/or controlled...away from the pain stimulus, not into it. Some seem to believe otherwise. If contraction was an automatic or deliberate action into the pain response causing a movement further into that pain response the animal kingdom would be in deep coprolite.
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John Scruggs, CJF
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