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TOPIC: Foundered Mare I've been working on

Foundered Mare I've been working on 29 Jun 2009 22:31 #1

  • irishcas
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Hi All:

I had shared this link back in January. But am really pleased with the progress she is making

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk64/irishcas/Foundered%20Mare/June%2028%2009/?

This includes video as well.

If you move out of the sub album you can see each trims photos.

It's so easy when they are not metabolic and the owner follows instructions.
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 30 Jun 2009 13:53 #2

  • calshoer
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Other than agreeing that she can walk fairly comfy on soft grass, I will let someone else comment on the details of what more could be done for that horse's hooves.
It looks like your usual trimming.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 30 Jun 2009 14:43 #3

  • irishcas
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calshoer wrote:
Other than agreeing that she can walk fairly comfy on soft grass, I will let someone else comment on the details of what more could be done for that horse's hooves.

Actually owner is taking her out for rides walks only of course and horse is comfy on ALL terrain, even rocky ground and pavement. I would attribute that more to her being a tough TB than having thick soles..
It looks like your usual trimming.


And obviously working! Thank you for the compliment.
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 30 Jun 2009 14:44 #4

  • RiversideBoy
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Everything is stretched forward INCLUDING the apex of the frog. It wouldn't surprise me if the true apex is close to an inch caudal from where it appears in the "trim". My thoughts-back the whole foot up and address the flares. I think I would be fired at many places for dubbing toes like that.

If the capsule is left distorted, you are leaving the horse more susceptible for future regressions. Get the mechanics right and there is less pull forward-even when sound.

There is no 50/50 ratio around the coa on this horse....
Eli Smith
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 30 Jun 2009 20:16 #5

  • mwmyersdvm
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I am glad you got some positive initial response, but I feel this case will unravel on you in the near future if the balance issues aren't addressed a bit more aggressively. The breakover has been moved somewhat caudal, but I doubt this will be enough for longer term care.

Radiographs on this horse would be a must for long term maintenance. Some of the "painless" movement the horse is experiencing may be due to the fact that all four hooves are painful and the horse does not limp or exhibit obvious pain because of the 'balance' of the discomfort.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 30 Jun 2009 20:37 #6

  • Rightstep
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I would really love to know WHAT improvements you are seeing Kim? Besides the horse can walk...on soft grass :) WOuld love to see video of the horse walking on flat cement let alone gravel!
You have been trimming this mare since January....the overall distortion is worse than your first pictures. The medial heel is classic for your trimming-left too forward and long-out of balance. I am not sure you are aware where the hooves are really flaring from because you are still not taking enough off the "right" spots and way too much on some spots that need protection...
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 30 Jun 2009 23:07 #7

  • irishcas
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Okay here you go Facts ONLY:

Here is the foot the day I started. On this day the horse had NO lamellar attachment. The only thing that didn't happen is the hoof capsule didn't fall off in my hand when I pulled the shoes.

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk64/irishcas/Foundered%20Mare/Jan%2025%2009/?action=view¤t=IMG_0780LG.jpg
http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk64/irishcas/Foundered%20Mare/Jan%2025%2009/?action=view¤t=IMG_0781LG.jpg

Here is the foot as I saw it on Sunday. Less than 6 months later.

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk64/irishcas/Foundered%20Mare/June%2028%2009/?action=view¤t=IMG_2552LG.jpg

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk64/irishcas/Foundered%20Mare/June%2028%2009/?action=view¤t=IMG_2555LG.jpg

And the video of the horse moving on some gravel, soft ground and some hard ground.

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk64/irishcas/Foundered%20Mare/June%2028%2009/?action=view¤t=Regal.flv

If it doesn't meet your criteria well, not sure what to say. But it meets the horse and her owners and my criteria. I will continue to maintain her in this fashion as it is working and working well.

Horse is moving well, is back under saddle and in 3 trims or less the hoof will be back to as normal as it will ever be.
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 01 Jul 2009 00:05 #8

  • Rightstep
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The heels are much more run under, the break over has moved forward at least an inch, if not two inches from when you started trimming, heel bulbs look flat and deflated (good indicator of non use), toe quarters left way too long and look at that hairline! Again WHERE is the improvements you speak of?
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 01 Jul 2009 01:10 #9

I do see some improvement- such as the heels are much lower and the frog is more likely to come in contact with the ground and get some use. I DO think the toe should come back more, but that may be hard to do while still keeping the horse fairly sound? I assume the toe is beveled a bit from the bottom for breakover? Maybe something like a natural balance shoe would help the breakover and allow you to get the toe back? Those are just my thoughts, thrown out there for the sake of discussion and learning. I admit I don't have much personal experience with founder. It does look like the foot is being de-rotated, does it not? :confused:

PS. I think the hairline has definitely improved since the earlier shoe/trim job. It was wayyyy jammed up before.
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 01 Jul 2009 04:21 #10

  • RiversideBoy
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I guess you have it completely in control and have nothing left to improve upon....:confused:
Eli Smith
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 01 Jul 2009 09:19 #11

  • Jaye Perry
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Eli, Myers, Patty and Right,

Here is a pic that was sent to me on another farrier forum in a blind message. What are your thoughts:confused::

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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 01 Jul 2009 10:38 #12

  • irishcas
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RiversideBoy wrote:
I guess you have it completely in control and have nothing left to improve upon....:confused:

As a matter of fact I do. What is it that bothers you so much, that I didn't put shoes on a founder to get her sound?

I believe if you go back and read my original post you will see I was excited and was bragging. I was NOT asking for help.

So it was a happy post, but *** was I thinking posting something like that here.

How about you go thru your photo archives and pull out a founder you have taken from dead lame, recommended to be put down and less than 6 months later it is walking trotting and cruising around bare on an almost entirely new, connected capsule. Rightstep, feel free to do the same.

When I go back in 4 weeks, I'll make sure to find a gravel drive way for her to walk over, there is one right outside the pen. If you use your eagle eye you can see as she comes out of the shed it is all rocks, I don't see her gimping there.

If you and a few others can't see the new better growth on these feet than you are being willfully and woefully ignorant! Your problem, not Regals or mine.
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 01 Jul 2009 10:59 #13

Who is the clinician who puts the nail all the way through the toe on a long toed horse? Is it Tia Nelson (Dana Bridges, DVM, would be another good choice, in Monroe, WA)? It would be good to spend some time with her to pour over x-rays and case studies so that you can get a better idea of how much toe you can remove on these cases. Of course, you really should have x-rays so you know for sure when there is this much distortion. But, I agree with the others that the toe is completely getting away from you which is counter productive to fixing a founder case.

The heels look better as does the hairline. But, I also agree that it appears the heels may be starting to collapse (becoming more underrun).
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 01 Jul 2009 11:59 #14

  • Gary Hill
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Kim, don't think you are the only hoof care provider that has brought a founder back to service.:rolleyes: Ok, Kim, you PM'd me and thought I was harsh. Sorry but substandard work on horse feet to the satisfaction of the person doing the work is what gives these arguments of licenceing and testing grounds. You continue to dub feet saying that it is OK with you because you see no harm? As I told you in the PM, me and alot of other Farriers continue to have to come behind bad work to attempt to repair damage from it. Have seen it for years and will continue to see it, it unfortunately is and has become a part of this work for some strange reason? Now the Good Baron has provided the Farriers and horseshoes and hoofcare providers all over the world a place to exchange info and learn from each other. USE it to your advantage as we all should and your personal work will improve. We all gain from this site and there IMO are very few Master Farriers in this world of ours and awhole bunch of them don't even own a computer. We are lucky to have a few that I consider and respect as Masters and we all know who they are. Post your work if you have problems, let it get ripped and then learn from it. That I am sure is why
Baron does what he does.
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Foundered Mare I've been working on 01 Jul 2009 13:24 #15

  • caballus
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Jaye Perry wrote:
Eli, Myers, Patty and Right,

Here is a pic that was sent to me on another farrier forum in a blind message. What are your thoughts:confused::

I would say its a good start but the laminar wedge needs to be removed as much as possible to allow the hoof to function more efficiently in order to encourage new, healthy, tight growth. Heels could come down a bit and toes back a bit, also. Here is an approximation !! ...



If you try to follow the angle of the new growth at the periople for the dorsal hoofwall angle then you'll see the new hoof growing in tighter all the way down. But that laminar wedge is prohibitive to hoof functioning. Gotta get the hoof functioning to get the blood circulating most efficiently for new growth.

BTW ... the hoof in my avatar is actually a foundered hoof - rotated approximately 9*. This was the first trim I did on that hoof. Going back again this week for 2nd trim. Here's another founder that I'm working on - showing the removal of the laminar wedge. ...



Still have more wedge to remove. Also, I didn't take the heels back enough and left pressure areas as evidenced by the curved hairline but after two hours of working on hooves like petrified wood we decided to let her be for the time being. Had to work with the hoof on a block of wood as she was unable to stand on 3 hooves. Reportedly, from the owner, she's doing better ... more comfortable. We're in this for the long haul, though. I'm actually working on this mare later today. We'll see if we can accomplish any good for her this time around.
:) -- Gwen Santagate
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