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TOPIC: 6th shoer to give it a try

RE:6th shoer to give it a try 15 Jun 2009 15:05 #31

  • Joey Aczon
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Katy Watts wrote:
I have heard some hoof care providers that will walk away from a laminitis case if the owner does not agree to comply with dietary management. They come right out and say ' I cannot fix these feet unless you fix the diet'.

I'm one of them Katy. :cool: Unfortunately I have to be around here. There are so many "forgotten" horses around here that have obvious dietary and or hoofcare problems, it'd make you sick. But there's not enough manpower to enforce anything.

Katy Watts wrote:
So, if I were to write a one page, sort of cartoon version of the importance of diet, do you think it would be useful? Maybe stick with jr high level words, KISS. If I write this, will you hand it out?

For those who care enough, and have the ability and patience to read several pages, this is a good overall plan.
http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/LaminitisDefense.pdf

I think that really would help. I've had a couple clients that did go to your site, but admitted they quickly became overwhelmed and left.
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 15 Jun 2009 15:16 #32

  • Katy Watts
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Joey Aczon wrote:
I think that really would help. I've had a couple clients that did go to your site, but admitted they quickly became overwhelmed and left.

OK. I intentionally made my website such that it might influence science in veterinary and nutrition. Teach the teachers first. I think I have made some inroads there.

I will admit, that I am not skilled in communicating with ummm... intellectually challenged people, and even less so to people who are lazy and don't give a s h i t , but if anyone is good at that, I would appreciate a volunteer for editing. I have a tendency to sound condescending or angry when I talk to s t u p i d, lazy people, and we need to attempt to suck up a little for the sake of the poor ponies held captive by these people.
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
www.safergrass.org
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 15 Jun 2009 15:20 #33

  • Joey Aczon
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Katy Watts wrote:
I will admit, that I am not skilled in communicating with ummm... intellectually challenged people, and even less so to people who are lazy and don't give a s h i t , but if anyone is good at that, I would appreciate a volunteer for editing. I have a tendency to sound condescending or angry when I talk to s t u p i d, lazy people, and we need to attempt to suck up a little for the sake of the poor ponies held captive by these people.

LOL, I'm the same way. I REALLY need to pay attention to how I explain hoof issues to clients as most of them really don't even understand the anatomy. This sounds right up Mr Goughs alley though.

Actually, I think that's a big factor in why I broke up with my last lady friend. :eek:
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 15 Jun 2009 15:54 #34

Katy Watts wrote:
Ya, 6 different farriers are making money on this pony, but somebody needs to be the advocate for the pony and save him from the owner. Sigh..... OK here's an idea that good for the ponies and can still make some of you $$ if you have space to bring them home. Offer 'holistic management boarding' for laminitic ponies. With a sand round pen, soaked hay, no grain, LOTS of these will turn right around in a month. Other hoof care providers are doing this. Get them AWAY from the owners, feed them right, get them sound, and PROVE that this is not just about what you do with the feet. Then when they melt down again when they go home, maybe they will listen.

I have heard some hoof care providers that will walk away from a laminitis case if the owner does not agree to comply with dietary management. They come right out and say ' I cannot fix these feet unless you fix the diet'. They say about the time their butt hits the truck seat, the owners will agree. Please give this a try, for the sake of the long suffering pony.
Katy

Bingo! Katy, it's what makes so angry with people with founder, today.
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 16 Jun 2009 00:37 #35

  • Jaye Perry
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Katy Watts;.....

I will admit, that I am not skilled in communicating with ummm... intellectually challenged people, and even less so to people who are lazy and don't give a s h i t , but if anyone is good at that, I would appreciate a volunteer for editing. I have a tendency to sound condescending or angry when I talk to s t u p i d, lazy people, and we need to attempt to suck up a little for the sake of the poor ponies held captive by these people.

Learnt a long while ago~~~'Ya can't fix s t u p id':cool:
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 16 Jun 2009 07:20 #36

  • Red Amor
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Its good that your trying to educate the Hierarchies , educators you said
That's OK

But the simple fact is that the vast majority of horses are owned by simpler people and Im not using the word simple to denigrate any one
I consider myself in the above category
I have trouble with comprehension and would be buggered with out spell check and find that if its all written or said in anything other than layman's terms with some good poignant photos Im likely to nod off or just close the book
I have in the past sent many of my clients to Wattsies site and others trying to get the message across some admitted the had trouble or were put off some I know just wouldn't admit it
Were not all lasy or thick heads and were not cretins and we dont all not give a phuck
BUT NONE OF YOU JOKERS should be talking to people like they are anyway
I found out long ago that you will get to help more horses if you leave the owners dignity intact remember if you insult bully threaten shame or embarras them the horse is really the only one to suffer
get the client on side as part of the team as soon as possible
Having said all this there are sadly quite a few Ive walked away from and warned colleges about and they eventually did the same
that's life cant help them all not harm in trying just the same
Ive offered many times to buy or rehome horses now n then it comes off good O
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 16 Jun 2009 13:00 #37

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What happens when the owners change the diet, paddocks, trimming/shoes and the horse or pony is still lame? What if after years of treatment and over $10 000 the the owner still is left with pasture pets? I have one new client who works for the RCMP and has gone to everyone under the sun in the past five years to help her horse but he still founders..even with 0 changes to his diet or living conditions. IR tests come back negative and it is very frustrating.

I would not blame everything on people not listening, the science and "cure" is still not perfected! Many people are still left with unsound horses after countless vets, farriers, nutritionist's, tests and $ spent to get them sound-some may have been left too long without proper care and some even with proper care have issues.
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 16 Jun 2009 13:11 #38

  • Rick Burten
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Jaye Perry wrote:
Learnt a long while ago~~~'Ya can't fix s t u p id':cool:
Agreed! But you can sure pencil-whip them for it.:)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 16 Jun 2009 13:12 #39

  • Joey Aczon
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DeniseMc wrote:
The point is, folks will listen and learn when they are ready. The message and info still needs to get out there, but it doesn't need to come with an "attitude"...

That's F*N BULL!!! If they're not ready then they need to not have a special needs horse. If they have a horse with special needs then I really don't care if they are "ready" or not, they need to stop sitting on their asses and take care of their animal.

Rightstep wrote:
What happens when the owners change the diet, paddocks, trimming/shoes and the horse or pony is still lame? What if after years of treatment and over $10 000 the the owner still is left with pasture pets? I have one new client who works for the RCMP and has gone to everyone under the sun in the past five years to help her horse but he still founders..even with 0 changes to his diet or living conditions. IR tests come back negative and it is very frustrating.

I would not blame everything on people not listening, the science and "cure" is still not perfected! Many people are still left with unsound horses after countless vets, farriers, nutritionist's, tests and $ spent to get them sound-some may have been left too long without proper care and some even with proper care have issues.

Well DUH!! As a wise man once said **** happens. I'm sorry but someone who has spent over $10k on a dead horse walking has been told or at least suggested to put it down, I can guarantee. If they didn't listen that's their fault, or the fault of the equine practitioners.

But if you're talking about a person who has been alerted to a possible problem that is costing them these thousands of dollars and they still don't do anything to research... I think that does deserve the title of stu pid.
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 16 Jun 2009 13:26 #40

Rightstep wrote:
What happens when the owners change the diet, paddocks, trimming/shoes and the horse or pony is still lame? What if after years of treatment and over $10 000 the the owner still is left with pasture pets? I have one new client who works for the RCMP and has gone to everyone under the sun in the past five years to help her horse but he still founders..even with 0 changes to his diet or living conditions. IR tests come back negative and it is very frustrating.

I would not blame everything on people not listening, the science and "cure" is still not perfected! Many people are still left with unsound horses after countless vets, farriers, nutritionist's, tests and $ spent to get them sound-some may have been left too long without proper care and some even with proper care have issues.

We are finding out in medicine today that a lot of it has to do with "Genetics".

I believe founder has to do to with genetics and finding that gene that turns on and off the signal for the horse to go into a lamanitic phase is a possible cure for laminitis. Gene therapy for founder in the next 20 years; is a possibility; and could be were the farrier industry is heading!!

I have believe this from the beginning, and maybe one day it will be proven to a gene that starts this whole phase.

Another idea is that this could also be a form of virus or cancer.
We are finding out that some cancers are virus related.
The HPV virus and it's link to cervical cancer.

I think we are on the verge of new technology in the next 10-20 years in this field when it comes to veterinarian medicine and it's effect on the farrier industry.
Cures for EIA, IR resistant, cushings, lamanitis ect., will be more cured and/or controlled than they are today.
The technology for new medicines and gene therapy for animals is where we are headed in the future.
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 16 Jun 2009 13:33 #41

DeniseMc wrote:
I agree that not everything that triggers a bout of laminitis is known or understood. Seasonal bouts in the spring and fall need to be researched more; changes in hormones due to changes in daylight are not well documented or understood; how the cold affects hormones or the changes it brings to the body is not understood. Pieces of the puzzle are still missing, but that shouldn't prevent folks from listening and acting on what is known in regards to diet; and calling them s t up i d is counterproductive and a waste of energy.
Denise

Correct;
and remember, we are sometimes at the mercy of the weather when growing hay. Some farmers have good years with execellent nutritional hay; and other years with the weather being off, having not the best hay to sell to the general public, as well. Education is good; but we are all at the mercy of the mother nature and the weather in growing our crops for the season.

But there comes a time where common sense has to prevail on a sick horse; and knowing when to let go of the situation.
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 16 Jun 2009 14:01 #42

  • Joey Aczon
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DeniseMc wrote:
My point is that you can not educate those who are not ready for it. Calling people names or treating them as if they are s t u p i d is about the fastest way to reinforce a brick wall. You need to dismantle that brick wall first if you want to reach them. And I'll bet you've never been humbled by a case where everything was "done correctly" in accordance with the latest, greatest research and things still went south..
Denise

My point is that it's not their decision. Get the education or get rid of the horse. If you're not ready for the nessicary education, then you're not mature enough or smart enough to keep that horse. I have a great deal of empathy for those that really try, but the people that don't deserve the names, and IMO legal repercussions for being so ******, or stubborn. You can only excuse ignorance until one is made aware of it.
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 16 Jun 2009 14:16 #43

  • Katy Watts
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Rightstep wrote:
What happens when the owners change the diet, paddocks, trimming/shoes and the horse or pony is still lame?

Because sometimes we fail after a lot of effort is no excuse for not trying. I have much empathy for those who have made a genuine effort to learn how to care for their laminitic horses. It's the people who refuse or do not care to learn that make me (and Joey) crazy.
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
www.safergrass.org
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 16 Jun 2009 15:42 #44

Katy Watts wrote:
It's the people who refuse or do not care to learn that make me (and Joey) crazy.

Just dealt with a grass founder yesterday, and I have to agree with Katy and Joey. I've told the owner for the past three years that she was pushing her luck and that--at the very least--she needed to spend twenty bucks on a grazing muzzle. She'd just laugh and say something to the effect that Porky sure had a good life just wandering around twenty acres of lush clover and grass. If she were a dum*b person, I'd be okay, but she's not; in fact, she's got at least one graduate degree in nutrition!!

I can accept and deal with the stu*pid or dum*b folk. If someone genuinely can't process the information, that's okay by me. It's the ignor*ant folk that set me off. As the label indicates, it's not that they are incapable of understanding; it's that they choose to ignore.

Choosing to be ignore/ant is okay if you're not jeapordizing someone or something's health and well being. I choose to remain ignorant of classical opera, and I'm comfortable with that. But if I choose to be ignorant about leaving my dog in the cab of the truck on a hot day, I'm breaching a responsibility.
~~Danvers

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“Watch what people are cynical about, and you will often discover what they lack." General George S. Patton Jr.

"Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than...
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 16 Jun 2009 16:19 #45

DeniseMc wrote:
Founder due to fat, underexercised horses turned out on lush grass has been known about at least since I've owned horses and first worked on a TB breeding farm over a quarter century ago (and I'll bet it was known long before then too). Founder prevention through diet and exercise is usually just given lip service or never given a second thought till it actually happens and only then will some listen and act. Don't they all deserve the same focus of anger as those who won't learn or act after the fact? After all, prevention is much easier than dealing with the aftermath...
Denise

Today, people believe a fat horse is a healthy; and it is "NOT!!!!!!!"

NOTE: Horses are made to be thin, lean running machines; the way nature intended them to be. To run away from predators and to survive another day.

We are the most obese country in the Western world and our children have more over-weight than any other country; except Tonga. We have heart-attacks, diabeties, cancer, ect. We over eat as a nation.

This behavior extents to our horse keeping and management of today.
No other country that I am aware of has as many obese horses, foundered, and IR restant, cushings, than our own.
We over over-grain, over-supplement, over-drug, over-graze our horses till we have these type of results.

Scientists are now saying we should eat less; and feel even a little hungry. This starts the survivor gene to kick in to our systems. Interesting, is an it?
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