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TOPIC: 6th shoer to give it a try

RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 19:19 #16

  • Joey Aczon
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Ok, for some reason, I got myself confused thinking you wanted to trim this foot another 5°. My mistake.

I am curious though. Rick mentioned adding some length to the heels of the shoe. Do you think that with this configuration it really makes any difference how far back the shoe is fit as long as the foot is covered?
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 19:53 #17

  • brian robertson
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Ron's application of the banana package on that pony, further re-enforces my idea that alot of banana shoes should actually be referred to as my "nothing left to lose"shoes. Sometimes when they're used, after everybody else has had a go at the poor critter, the better they seem to work.
This pony is certainly not going back in the show ring again but I'll bet there will be a significant improvement in the quality of it's life; maybe even fewer Vet bills.
Although, on second thought, Ron might be able to consult with the attending Vet, on a regular basis.
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 20:36 #18

  • Rick Burten
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
The most difficult thing to understand in this concept is that a 55 degree foot is nothing like a 55 degree foot trimmed down to 50 degree and a5 degree wedge added.
Why not?
Rick this is the what has happened just trimming the toe on this very same horse by one of the shoers that has worked this pony. See how the trim only served to increase pressure in the toe area in stead of relieving it?
Well of course it happened if only the toe was trimmed...........But if both the toe and the heels were appropriately trimmed and either the banana shoe applied or a banana-like rocker trimmed into the bottom of the foot, the results would well have been different. And, I still believe some of that excess toe could have been removed. Regardless, I'm happy as all get out that your approach is helping this pony!
And how DDFT has to work (and pull on the already ischemic laminea) just to keep this puppy's toe on the ground?
IME, getting at least some of that toe out of the way and supporting the frog, bars, commissures, etc , including wedging as necessary, will reduce the work the DDFT has to do and relieve at least some of the strain/pull it is exerting against the damaged laminae.
On rotated lamitic horses DO NOT trim the toe. Just trim heels.
That sounds counter-intuitive........
Do not even touch the anterior part of the foot.
Well, that's one paradigm.
If it ends up looking like a duck's beak, Rick, who cares?
Ummmmmm, the horse? Why the heck would I or anyone else want to leave all that distortion? Doesn't it work against the healing you are trying to achieve?
When the horse is better we'll do some nice rasping to smoothen that out.
I'm not looking to smooth things out, I'm trying to remove distortion and shorten the lever as much as is practicable.
What we are looking for now is pressure in the posterior part of the foot, not the anterior part of it.
Downwards pressure without some form of support on the bottom of the hoof has never been very successful for me. I think the concept of the banana shoe in conjunction with appropriate ancillary mechanical support is a fine one. I still don't think leaving all that toe is necessarily a good thing. :o:)

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 21:27 #19

  • Red Amor
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jaysanvil wrote:
Where is the picture of the vet?


Gotta be related to GAZZAHilly this bloke
so wheres the picture of the vet RON :p;)
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 21:33 #20

  • Gary Hill
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Red, you read me well!:D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 21:33 #21

  • Red Amor
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Ive look at some of our Rons packaged and in some Ive thought like Rick maybe a lill more of toe IF possable or shoe set a lill further back
BUT Im in no way trying to tell our Ron how to suck eggs and quite readerly bow to his experience and prowess
Thanks for posting thia case Ron yeah
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 22:06 #22

  • Mark_Gough
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Ron,

Thank you for investing so much of your time answering my questions. I have read nearly everything you've posted in the past on this topic. It has left me with as many questions as answers but I can see great value in the approach. It has changed the way I think about how the skeletal column is supported/suspended within the hoof capsule.

When you next visit the states perhaps you can schedule a multi-day, hands-on clinic and demonstration.

What you're doing is something I believe a lot of farriers would want to explore in much greater detail.

Rick brings up some good discussion points. It is my hope that you have time to respond to his post.

Thanks again,
Mark
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 15 Jun 2009 05:05 #23

  • SlowShoe
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Thus far, I have a perfect record. I've given Katy's URL to MANY people and I don't think a single one has gone there to read anything.

Same here Mike. I've got a few fat ponies that have some serious problems. The owneres NEVER take them off of grass, NEVER cut grain from their diets, forget soaking hay. "But he looked hungry, poor horsey"

Then they call me complaining their horse is sore becuase he needs a trim. Nothing that they could have prevented. Then If I tell them about it, they act super interested and never follow through....
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 15 Jun 2009 06:54 #24

Mark_Gough wrote:
Rick brings up some good discussion points. It is my hope that you have time to respond to his post.

Thanks again,
Mark


Rick's questions indicate that I have not been clear enough about the first of all steps working on chronic rotated laminitic horses. This is the often discussed "derotation/realignment" part. I noticed some have trouble with the wording "derotation". Frankly I don't care at all how it's called as long as the concept gets through.

On a rotated P3 we can not put screws in the hoof wall and attach P3 back to the wall as a means of derotation. For one because the hoof wall grows down but P3 stays in place relative to that hoof wall.

If we think hard enough we'll see that there is no way to get P3 back aligned with the dorsal hoof wall once it rotated. What we're left with is a P3 that points down leaving a lamillar wedge of pus, stretched and/or destroyed lamillae and what else dorsally. P3 pointing down puts pressure on the underlying vessels, limiting sole growth. The first and last protection P3 has.

If we step back a bit from this problem of not being able to derotate P3 within the hoof capsule, we might see that there is another way to derotate P3. We cán position the entire hoof capsule in a way it leaves P3 in a normal position relative to the horizontal. This usually leaves the hoof wall with a funny looking dorsal hoof wall, which is of no importance at all at this stage. As long a proper shoeing prevents the toe from being a break over lever leave all the toe as much as possible. Don´t worry about how it looks. In fact working on that issue would be more like working on a symptom rather than a cause.

Shoeing laminitic horses is about P3 guys NOT the hoof capsule. When discussing derotation we're discussing derotation of P3 by means of changing the support surface of the hoof capsule. Rotating the hoof capsule obviously also changes the position of P3 in that hoof capsule as long as the lamillar bond is not fully destroyed as in sinkers. P3 and the hoof capsule are connected through a lamillar bond even in lamitic cases, the bond there is in serious jeopardy but often strong enough if we help it.

The way I see it shoeing laminitic horses is nothing more than counter acting the forces at play. We are no healers, we're mechanics. The healthy foot is a surprisingly delicate co existence of forces and counterforces all acting upon and within the foot. I call that a matrix (and hope it clarifies what I mean in stead of diffusing it :rolleyes:) That matrix handles all forces, DDFT pull and the navicular pulley, just as it handles ground reaction forces, weight of the loaded foot, the lamellar bond and much more. This delicate matrix is virtually undestructable when that matrix is well maintained. But when one of the parts is destroyed or damaged the rest can not cope anymore.

Laminitis damages the bond between P3 and the hoofwall, why and exactly how is for researchers not us. The result however is obvious the matrix is destroyed, in this case DDFT pull has no counter force anymore and P3 is pulled away from the wall. The front end of P3 (apex) crushes everything underneath, the vessels and given time the sole that will stop growing because of lack of bloodflow through those crushed vessels for one. But more than that happens. The rotated P3 allows for rapid heel growth, reducing the counterforce of the ground working on the frog and sole. The rotated P3 also compromises bloodflow through the coronary artery because the extensor proces is pushed forward (dorsally) when P3 rotates.

I am absolutely convinced that this mechanical result of laminitis is the one and foremost issue we need to deal with.

Over the years there have been several approaches to address the devastating mechanical result of laminitis. I guess two of the most well known are the approach by Burney Chapman and the one Ric Redden worked out. Both are different. But both seem to agree that derotation/realignment is vital.

For me over the years I tried everything, even barefoot approaches. The system I work with is what has given me the highest succes rate of all the systems/protocols I tried.

In short I think you need a protocol that leaves the hoofwall and works towards hoofwall integrity; experience taught me I needed a system that would normalise the position of P3, relative to other structures within the hoofcapsule; for that I feel you need to reduce DDFT pull acting on P3 and the lamillea; further I realise that damage to the lamillar bond leaves P3 less stable within the hoofwall, in a attempt to provide more support frog/sole support is needed.

On my quest looking for reducing break over forces through this very same bulletin board I ran into banana shoes. Over the years I have used that protocol in a lot of situations laminitis for one. But the only advantage a banana shoe has over other means of break over is the it allows the horse to play with it's palmar angle. All other methods of easing break over bring back break over but do not allow that play. Why that play (being able to rock forward and rock back) appears important I don't know. I do now that just raising heels to reduce DDFT pull does not work in severe cases. The raise needed is so high you just crush heels. Steps to limit that heel crushing like heartbars appear to just further compromise bloodflow because the support needed to really take load from the heels is so big it just crushes the frog and sole, especially in laminitic horses that had weak heels to start with.

Some by the way feel that weight is an issue in laminitis. I don't know but I do doubt that statement. In my view weight is a friend rather than a foe. Break over forces are the main problem, not the weight as such. I don't have scientific proof and I have been wrong before. But reducing weight acting upon laminitic feet is no help in recovery at all. I think its fair to say that by now.

I hope this clarifies some of at least my thinking up to now on the mechanical effects of laminitis.



Ronald Aalders
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 15 Jun 2009 06:57 #25

brian robertson wrote:
Although, on second thought, Ron might be able to consult with the attending Vet, on a regular basis.

:D :D


Ronald Aalders
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 15 Jun 2009 07:38 #26

  • Red Amor
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what vet
I recon hes fibbin
she was probabley some crusty olbag he h ehe on a broomstick eeeeehe he he eh :eek:
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 15 Jun 2009 13:05 #27

  • Katy Watts
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SlowShoe wrote:
Same here Mike. I've got a few fat ponies that have some serious problems. The owneres NEVER take them off of grass, NEVER cut grain from their diets, forget soaking hay. "But he looked hungry, poor horsey"

Ya, 6 different farriers are making money on this pony, but somebody needs to be the advocate for the pony and save him from the owner. Sigh..... OK here's an idea that good for the ponies and can still make some of you $$ if you have space to bring them home. Offer 'holistic management boarding' for laminitic ponies. With a sand round pen, soaked hay, no grain, LOTS of these will turn right around in a month. Other hoof care providers are doing this. Get them AWAY from the owners, feed them right, get them sound, and PROVE that this is not just about what you do with the feet. Then when they melt down again when they go home, maybe they will listen.

I have heard some hoof care providers that will walk away from a laminitis case if the owner does not agree to comply with dietary management. They come right out and say ' I cannot fix these feet unless you fix the diet'. They say about the time their butt hits the truck seat, the owners will agree. Please give this a try, for the sake of the long suffering pony.
Katy
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 15 Jun 2009 13:43 #28

  • Katy Watts
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Thus far, I have a perfect record. I've given Katy's URL to MANY people and I don't think a single one has gone there to read anything.

So, if I were to write a one page, sort of cartoon version of the importance of diet, do you think it would be useful? Maybe stick with jr high level words, KISS. If I write this, will you hand it out?

For those who care enough, and have the ability and patience to read several pages, this is a good overall plan.
http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/LaminitisDefense.pdf
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
www.safergrass.org
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 15 Jun 2009 14:29 #29

  • Rick Burten
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Thanks Ron. That is a really good explanation/clarification. I will now ruminate on it for a while. :p;)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 15 Jun 2009 14:35 #30

  • Jack Evers
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Good article, Katy - thanks. Early in my career, I welcomed laminitic cases because I felt I could help. Now I hate them, because so many originate from poor management and unless the management is willing to change and it usually doesn't, the situation doesn't change.

I know that luck plays a part, but in 50+ years of owning and boarding horses (probably close to a thousand horse years - average of 20 horses under my care), there have been zero founders, yet I have clients that have foundered nearly every horse that they ever owned.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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