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TOPIC: 6th shoer to give it a try

6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 10:28 #1

After a number of shoers and vet clinics working on this pony I got a call from the prettiest vet I ever met.

Was there anything I could do? Well other than major problems evidenced by both X rays and feet, the fact that a number of "Laminitis Experts" here in Holland have worked on this horse, and the fact that this has been going on for a number of years, I could see no problems. So sure, where is the pony?

A really tough 20+ pony. Good spirit but sore as h*ll.

First work yesterday and a nice illustration of the best asset the banana shoe has to offer. The self adjustable palmar angle feature. Comes in free!


Ronald Aalders
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 10:35 #2

  • Red Amor
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Good on ya Ron
hes a lucky boy you,ll get him right anain good O mate
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 12:43 #3

  • Katy Watts
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Obviously, this has been going on a long time. What is the pony eating?
Katy
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
www.safergrass.org
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 12:55 #4

  • Dogwood Forge
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Katy Watts wrote:
What is the pony eating?


Everything!
Chip Crumbly CJF, AWCF
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 12:56 #5

  • Jay Mickle
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Where is the picture of the vet?
Jay Mickle
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 13:34 #6

Katy Watts wrote:
Obviously, this has been going on a long time. What is the pony eating?
Katy

I fear "everything" pretty much covers it :D The owner did her best as much as she could under the circumstances. I tried to explain a few things about food, but I'm no expert in that area.

Pony looks pretty lean though.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 13:46 #7

  • Katy Watts
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
I fear "everything" pretty much covers it :D The owner did her best as much as she could under the circumstances. I tried to explain a few things about food, but I'm no expert in that area.

Pony looks pretty lean though.

But theres that cresty neck. My pony with out of control insulin is lean like this. Researchers now agreeing that some of the most difficult to treat forms of IR occur in lean horses. They say some forms of hyperinsulinemia occur from liver dysfunction in insulin production and clearance.

If you can get the owner to get him completely off grass and grain, and feed only hay that is soaked in LOTS of water for a couple hours, you might become the first successful farrier this pony has had. Try to get them to promise to try for just 2 weeks. Often that is enough to get the owner to see this is the right direction.
Katy
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 14:34 #8

  • Mark_Gough
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Very nicely done Ron. Couple of questions for you.

When you say the banana shoe offers a 'self adjustable palmar angle feature', are you referring to the ability of the horse to "rock itself" into the position of most comfortable A/P balance around COA or... is it a reference to coffin bone angulation with respect to the ground surface?

Is there a relationship between this 'self balancing' and the angle of the P3 solar surface with the ground (ground parallel, wedged effect, etc)?

Is the first photograph (pre-shod) showing the right foot trimmed/prepped for the shoe installation?

I believe you've talked briefly about the 'padding' you use with the shoe. Some kind of polymer sandwiched between two thin layers of metal? Does the metal sheeting cover the entire bottom of the foot or is it a rim type pad fit to the perimeter of the foot? Where do you get this material and why do you use it over other materials?

I can see packing in the left caudal area. Is this for support or to act as a cushion between the hard surface of the pad and the foot?

I've seen the 'template' iron you use to build the convex shape of the shoe. Is the radial of the shoe always the same for each instance in which you use this application or do you use other templates to provide more or less angular radius as needed? My guess is that the ideal radius is measured from the COA to the ground surface. If it varies, how do acquire this measurement?

Was the xray taken post-trim?

What improvement in apparent comfort level of the horse could you see when the work was complete? Was the 'full body' photograph taken after the shoes were installed?

I have a hard time visualizing a usable COA based on the xray in the photo. If I draw a line from the COA at the DIPJ to the ground it leaves the HPA almost vertical. I believe this is because of the relationship between P1 and P2 at the pastern joint. Alignment of P1/P2 is straight, but the 'at-rest' position appears to show subluxation at the articulating surface. Is the COA still a valid reference in such an 'up-right' limb?

Do you use this banana shoe configuration to address any other problems besides laminitics? Otherwise sound horses?

Have you come to believe, based on your own experience, that your banana shoe is a more effective solution for treating laminitics than the more popular wooden and polymer clogs?

Yeah, I know... lot's of questions. Frankly, I view some of the work you are doing in this area as way ahead of just about anything else I see in my own area. I have found no example of anyone in this locale using this method to treat laminitics and I'm not convinced it is getting the attention that it deserves.

One last question. Do you have any plans to visit the states in the near future for any kind of clinical demonstrations of your techniques? Perhaps the AFA, GPF or BWFA (I hear they're big on research :D) would be interested in financing/arranging such a clinic.

This kind of work needs exposure and, in my opinion, lots of study, analysis and repetition by others.

A high value contribution you could make would be a step-by-step training video. I have to believe there would be a HUGE market for such a video. Might make a nice retirement supplement when you're ready to hang up the hammer in 30 or 40 years. :rolleyes:

Thanks for sharing Ron! Please share more! Lot's more!!

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 14:41 #9

  • Mark_Gough
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Katy Watts wrote:
But theres that cresty neck. My pony with out of control insulin is lean like this. Researchers now agreeing that some of the most difficult to treat forms of IR occur in lean horses. They say some forms of hyperinsulinemia occur from liver dysfunction in insulin production and clearance.

If you can get the owner to get him completely off grass and grain, and feed only hay that is soaked in LOTS of water for a couple hours, you might become the first successful farrier this pony has had. Try to get them to promise to try for just 2 weeks. Often that is enough to get the owner to see this is the right direction.
Katy

Katy, I don't disagree with any of your concerns/recommendations but... I've found that when I try to explain the details to owners, they quickly begin to 'glaze over'. I've found an easier approach to assisting owners with their horse's dietary needs is to simply identify an educational resource on the back of my business card and give them one.

On the back I write 'www.safergrass.org'.

Saves me a lot of time and allows me to focus on the mechanics of trimming and shoeing and gets the owner to the 'horses mouth' for specific information.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 14:44 #10

  • Rick Burten
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Nice work Ron!

I'm wondering, based on the rads, why you didn't take more toe and, possibly, add a bit more length to the heels of the shoe or just set the shoe back a bit further?

How often will you be seeing this horse?

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 15:02 #11

  • Mike Ferrara
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Mark_Gough wrote:
Katy, I don't disagree with any of your concerns/recommendations but... I've found that when I try to explain the details to owners, they quickly begin to 'glaze over'. I've found an easier approach to assisting owners with their horse's dietary needs is to simply identify an educational resource on the back of my business card and give them one.

On the back I write 'www.safergrass.org'.

Saves me a lot of time and allows me to focus on the mechanics of trimming and shoeing and gets the owner to the 'horses mouth' for specific information.

Cheers,
Mark

Thus far, I have a perfect record. I've given Katy's URL to MANY people and I don't think a single one has gone there to read anything.

Before my computer became a wreck, I used to print stuff out and put it right in folks hands...also with no effect.

I've also been amazed to discover the number of clients who don't use or, in some cases, even own a computer.

I guess I have to say that people are NOT listening. I listen but my wife's horse is still too fat.
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 18:22 #12

Rick Burten wrote:
Nice work Ron!

I'm wondering, based on the rads, why you didn't take more toe and, possibly, add a bit more length to the heels of the shoe or just set the shoe back a bit further?

How often will you be seeing this horse?

Rick


What I worry about Rick is not having been able to take away more heel. I did not even touch the toe. The most difficult thing to understand in this concept is that a 55 degree foot is nothing like a 55 degree foot trimmed down to 50 degree and a5 degree wedge added.


Ronald Aalders

Rick this is the what has happened just trimming the toe on this very same horse by one of the shoers that has worked this pony. See how the trim only served to increase pressure in the toe area in stead of relieving it? And how DDFT has to work (and pull on the already ischemic laminea) just to keep this puppy's toe on the ground? On rotated lamitic horses DO NOT trim the toe. Just trim heels. Do not even touch the anterior part of the foot. If it ends up looking like a duck's beak, Rick, who cares? When the horse is better we'll do some nice rasping to smoothen that out. What we are looking for now is pressure in the posterior part of the foot, not the anterior part of it.
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 18:51 #13

Mark_Gough wrote:
Very nicely done Ron. Couple of questions for you.

Mark in brown, me in black:

When you say the banana shoe offers a 'self adjustable palmar angle feature', are you referring to the ability of the horse to "rock itself" into the position of most comfortable A/P balance around COA or... is it a reference to coffin bone angulation with respect to the ground surface?

Both Mark, both. The horse does not rock "itself" it rocks its feet

Is there a relationship between this 'self balancing' and the angle of the P3 solar surface with the ground (ground parallel, wedged effect, etc)?

Obviously when a horse changes the angle its hoof makes to the horizontal, the palmar angle of P3 will change accordingly. They're connected (even in a big time laminitic case like this one)


Is the first photograph (pre-shod) showing the right foot trimmed/prepped for the shoe installation?

Uh, no Mark with that pic I hoped to illustrate how important it is to trim heels. The horse needs caudal support if you want to give it a fighting chance at all

I believe you've talked briefly about the 'padding' you use with the shoe. Some kind of polymer sandwiched between two thin layers of metal? Does the metal sheeting cover the entire bottom of the foot or is it a rim type pad fit to the perimeter of the foot? Where do you get this material and why do you use it over other materials?

That would be a sandwich plate. It's not a padding, its a pad. Two thin layers of aluminum with a rubber compound in between. It was never designed for horses but suits my needs just the same. For the hoofpack to give full support I need a firm rigid pad that I can easily cut will not give and is light. This type of pads offers just that. The packing is Vettec's CS. By the way I'm not too picky where the type of packing is concerned. I never found that differences in hardness have that much impact on recovery in laminitic cases. You need firm but giving.

I can see packing in the left caudal area. Is this for support or to act as a cushion between the hard surface of the pad and the foot?

No the shoe was longer than the heels. When duct taping the foot prior to injecting the CS this is what you're left with when the CS sets and you peel away the tape

I've seen the 'template' iron you use to build the convex shape of the shoe. Is the radial of the shoe always the same for each instance in which you use this application or do you use other templates to provide more or less angular radius as needed? My guess is that the ideal radius is measured from the COA to the ground surface. If it varies, how do acquire this measurement?

Definitely not. The belly of the roll should always be directly below the COA. (I have seen Dr. Redden shoe horses placing the roll a tad before the COA. I never did that. I agree that placing the roll a bit in front of the COA gives you some room to play with, but I just want zero DDFT pull, at least at the point where DDFT peaks, that fraction before heel lift)

Was the xray taken post-trim?

NO

What improvement in apparent comfort level of the horse could you see when the work was complete?

None

Was the 'full body' photograph taken after the shoes were installed?

Prior to shoeing

I have a hard time visualizing a usable COA based on the xray in the photo. If I draw a line from the COA at the DIPJ to the ground it leaves the HPA almost vertical. I believe this is because of the relationship between P1 and P2 at the pastern joint. Alignment of P1/P2 is straight, but the 'at-rest' position appears to show subluxation at the articulating surface. Is the COA still a valid reference in such an 'up-right' limb?

What you need to do first is derotate/realign P3. The COA deal come in AFTER derotation/realignment

Do you use this banana shoe configuration to address any other problems besides laminitics? Otherwise sound horses?

Yes Sir. On sound horses it helps a horse to dorsi extend the back (round the back as opposed to hollow/dorsi flex the back) In fact I think that our focus on feet in horses should be widened. We need to step back more when looking at horses and look at the whole horse, not just the feet.

Have you come to believe, based on your own experience, that your banana shoe is a more effective solution for treating laminitics than the more popular wooden and polymer clogs?

It's is not about the shoe. It's all about the mechanics the shoeing protocol offers. This is what unnerves me when people talk about clogs or whatever kind of shoeing protocol and present it as a solution in itself. What can be beneficial is the mechanical properties of a shoeing package. Not the name of that package, or the guy selling or endorsing it. Its the mechanical effect that can offer either relief or strain

Yeah, I know... lot's of questions. Frankly, I view some of the work you are doing in this area as way ahead of just about anything else I see in my own area. I have found no example of anyone in this locale using this method to treat laminitics and I'm not convinced it is getting the attention that it deserves.

One last question. Do you have any plans to visit the states in the near future for any kind of clinical demonstrations of your techniques? Perhaps the AFA, GPF or BWFA (I hear they're big on research :D) would be interested in financing/arranging such a clinic.

I travel to the US frequently. I'm happy to explain what I do and how I think about shoeing laminitic horses. But by now this here board offers most of what I do when working on laminitic horses. It takes some searching but it's all there.

This kind of work needs exposure and, in my opinion, lots of study, analysis and repetition by others.

A high value contribution you could make would be a step-by-step training video. I have to believe there would be a HUGE market for such a video. Might make a nice retirement supplement when you're ready to hang up the hammer in 30 or 40 years. :rolleyes:

I know I know. So far I promised Baron to talk on mechanical effect of shoeing during his Online Conference and I promised Frank Lessiter of the AFJ to do a story on Reining horse shoeing. I intend to do both before I do anything else. But hey, I need to make a living in the meantime as well!

Thanks for sharing Ron! Please share more! Lot's more!!

You're very welcome

Cheers,
Mark[/QUOTE]

p.s. this is the foot post trim

p.p.s the belly of the roll of a banana is always directly below the COA. The amount of roll however differs. What I work with are basically 3 grades. When ground side down on your anvil face a 6 mm (1/4") space at heel and toe is a light roll. 10 mm (3/8") is medium, 13 mm (1/2") is a heavy roll. The matching wedges are 1 degree, 2 degree and 3, sometimes 4 degree on the heavy roll.
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 18:53 #14

  • Joey Aczon
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
What I worry about Rick is not having been able to take away more heel. I did not even touch the toe. The most difficult thing to understand in this concept is that a 55 degree foot is nothing like a 55 degree foot trimmed down to 50 degree and a5 degree wedge added.


Ronald Aalders

Would you care to elaborate on that?
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:6th shoer to give it a try 14 Jun 2009 19:03 #15

Joey Aczon wrote:
Would you care to elaborate on that?

Yes but not too much. (It's part of my talk at the Online Conference, sorry) First heels don't grow down straight. They slant. The longer heels are, the more caudal support is lost. Second trimming heels lengthens the ground surface area of the foot.


Ronald Aalders
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