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TOPIC: Whoa! Where'd that come from?!

RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 18:08 #31

Gary Hill OFFLINE Guru Posts: 5298 Thank you received: 6 Karma: 4	My use of the heartbar is only of personal experiences of successes and failures. More success than failure. Also when the hoof is resected at any part, mechanical failure plays into my thoughts.
	"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 18:08 #32

mwmyersdvm
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everyhorseisapersontoo wrote:

mwmyersdvm;161097 wrote:

Not to be a 'devil's advocate', but is there actually any proof that a heartbar will stop sinking?
QUOTE]

Is this not always the same answer .....SOMETIMES ,sometimes NOT...

Those horses that are standing in soft ground have a better chance ,than those with shoes ,shod for some time ,with a concave sole ...and the vet and farrier are not called straight away..

What I really want to ask is the first aid the most important thing in any one case ...????

The reconstruction when done right and regular shoeing ,with no new case of laminitis almost a walk in the park ......also sometimes,sometimes not...

Good work JOEY,I thought the red stuff was Iodine,nice shoe ,,,more pictures please!

Good work on the hoof.

The "sometimes, sometimes not" answer also brings to mind the problem is did the horse get better because of what we did or in spite of what we did. This especially true when one gets equivocal results from a procedure. I had about 12 heartbars applied to laminitic horses when the practice was in its hey day and not one improved until we removed the appliance. This was done by three different farriers with considerable skill (Eddie Watson being one of the three). The high wedge to unload the deep flexor gained immediate improvement in all of these cases.

I work on quite a few cases and try to evaluate what is happening throughout the case and compared to similar cases, even though finding precisely similar cases is difficult.

I will certainly email Jason and get his input.

Additionally, I read Pollitt's treatise on the P3 periosteum and several others. Actually, neither he nor quite a few authors ever really looked to note if there was or was not one in existence, but rather surmised it from previous publications. A German group did actually look and there is periosteal tissue but it blends in with the corium and does not fully cover all of the bone surface from their determinations. My curiosity being piqued, I will contact a few pathologists and either determine if they have seen it or would they take a look for me to lay the issue to rest.

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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 08 Jun 2009 00:18 #33

Katy Watts OFFLINE Very Senior Member Posts: 677 Thank you received: 11 Karma: 4	irishcas wrote: Well DUH if you had said it all fancy like the article maybe I would have caught on sooner. and that, my dear, is the reason for the use of pretentious language in scientific journals. Common language that everyone can understand easily is not nearly as impressive.
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 08 Jun 2009 01:06 #34

irishcas OFFLINE Master Posts: 1708 Thank you received: 1 Karma: 0	Katy Watts wrote: and that, my dear, is the reason for the use of pretentious language in scientific journals. Common language that everyone can understand easily is not nearly as impressive. True, but that isn't why I didn't want to listen. I had no alternatives, barefoot or boots People only see what they want to believe, right.
	Kim Cassidy "I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 08 Jun 2009 12:23 #35

Phil Armitage
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Joey Aczon wrote:

The clip over the resected area was more for protection. I was aiming for a bigger clip but they were all getting in the way of each other while drawing them at this point. I know none of them are nice, but they're all functional.

http://horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=219&pictureid=1507

http://horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=219&pictureid=1506

No, that toe nail isn't seated right, I fubared the nail hole drawing the clip.

http://horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=219&pictureid=1508

Nice job Joey. I think the handmade bar shoe punched for this foot is a great choice.

Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer

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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 08 Jun 2009 19:19 #36

reillyshoe
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mwmyersdvm wrote:

everyhorseisapersontoo;161139 wrote:

Additionally, I read Pollitt's treatise on the P3 periosteum and several others. Actually, neither he nor quite a few authors ever really looked to note if there was or was not one in existence, but rather surmised it from previous publications. A German group did actually look and there is periosteal tissue but it blends in with the corium and does not fully cover all of the bone surface from their determinations. My curiosity being piqued, I will contact a few pathologists and either determine if they have seen it or would they take a look for me to lay the issue to rest.

I asked the question this morning. P3 does have a periosteum, but it differs from the surfaces of other bone. It is capable of osteoclast/osteoblast activity.

P

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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 08 Jun 2009 20:25 #37

Ray_Knightley OFFLINE Master Posts: 4219 Thank you received: 2 Karma: 0	reillyshoe wrote: mwmyersdvm;161193 wrote: I asked the question this morning. P3 does have a periosteum, but it differs from the surfaces of other bone. It is capable of osteoclast/osteoblast activity. That was not my Quote .but is not the change in the shape of P3 due to laminitis a sure sign of O-last-O-blast??just to note one?
	Ray Knightley.Farrier .Germany. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEXXUdU--Zg&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=AVGxdCwVVULXfIor1lgBXd3RK781l46jgn The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 09 Jun 2009 01:11 #38

mwmyersdvm
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everyhorseisapersontoo wrote:

reillyshoe;161322 wrote:

That was not my Quote .but is not the change in the shape of P3 due to laminitis a sure sign of O-last-O-blast??just to note one?

Not entirely. Macrophages and neutrophils can wreak havoc in areas of inflammation and remove tissue and liquefy bony areas a swell. It can be noted that the collateral cartilages, navicular suspensory ligaments, and other tendon and ligamentous structures ossify when chronically inflamed and these structures do not begin with osteoclastic and osteoblastic activity.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 09 Jun 2009 05:25 #39

bumfoot SHOER OFFLINE Very Senior Member Posts: 513 Karma: 0	Phil Armitage wrote: Nice job Joey. I think the handmade bar shoe punched for this foot is a great choice. joey as long as the shoes fit like you wanted and you got your clips to hold the hoof in place like you wanted is all that matters i would say ya did a nice job on the shoes and the hoof jmo. bryan e
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 09 Jun 2009 05:36 #40

Ronald Aalders
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:

mwmyersdvm in gray,

Not to be a 'devil's advocate', but is there actually any proof that a heartbar will stop sinking?

A Dutch computer model study done a few years ago showed that a straight bar and a heart bar gave identical support to minimize sole deformation. The paper was presented at a Bluegrass Lamimitis symposium.

The Austin weatherman uses computer models to predict the weather here in Central Texas, a fact that does not engender a great deal of faith in the accuracy of computer models.

As I recall, Chapman and Platt presented a paper at the 1984 AAEP Convention that touched on the subject. Please see http://www.olympus.net/personal/pvd/AAEP.html

And as a final touch, God created the Dutch

Might I suggest the use of a false bar. Great shoe lots of support easy and foolproof. By the way I ran into that type of bar years ago in the US........

Ronald Aalders

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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 09 Jun 2009 20:49 #41

Ray_Knightley OFFLINE Master Posts: 4219 Thank you received: 2 Karma: 0	Ronald Aalders wrote: And as a final touch, God created the Dutch Ronald Aalders Ronald I must say you are right in this Quote.... Why please read , Matthew 17:20 from the bible
	Ray Knightley.Farrier .Germany. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEXXUdU--Zg&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=AVGxdCwVVULXfIor1lgBXd3RK781l46jgn The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 10 Jun 2009 00:20 #42

Joey Aczon OFFLINE Master Posts: 1937 Thank you received: 1 Karma: 0	Ronald Aalders wrote: And as a final touch, God created the Dutch Might I suggest the use of a false bar. Great shoe lots of support easy and foolproof. By the way I ran into that type of bar years ago in the US........ Ronald Aalders What is a false bar? Am I walking into a set-up?
	Joey Aczon Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool: "I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 10 Jun 2009 03:54 #43

Just passin through~ OFFLINE Very Senior Member Posts: 827 Thank you received: 1 Karma: 1	Phil Armitage wrote: Nice job Joey. I think the handmade bar shoe punched for this foot is a great choice. Phil,what i liked about joeys job,is the way he fit the heels,but i think he gave the horse a little to much expanshion in the heel area.How do you feel about it?
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 10 Jun 2009 03:58 #44

Phil Armitage OFFLINE Guru Posts: 9254 Karma: 0	Just passin through~ wrote: Phil,what i liked about joeys job,is the way he fit the heels,but i think he gave the horse a little to much expanshion in the heel area.How do you feel about it? I know your being a smart ass.
	Phil Armitage, CF AFA member 7480 "Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 10 Jun 2009 04:20 #45

Just passin through~ OFFLINE Very Senior Member Posts: 827 Thank you received: 1 Karma: 1	Phil Armitage wrote: I know your being a smart ass. Thats a relief phil,i didn't think you would even catch it~ I hope you pass your test,after all the exposure you have gotten~At lest you got a 95 on the written? See what you get when you study? how old are you?
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