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TOPIC: Whoa! Where'd that come from?!

RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 06 Jun 2009 13:36 #16

  • caballus
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reillyshoe wrote:
Joey Aczon;160928 wrote:
[
http://horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=219&pictureid=1502

Horse was ready to founder and all of that wall was doing nothing but protecting this infection.


QUOTE]

Joey,
Don't you think he has already foundered in this foot?
I would agree with this question/assumption. Holy Cow that's a looooooong toe!
:) -- Gwen Santagate
“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” -- Albert Einstein
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 06 Jun 2009 15:06 #17

  • Joey Aczon
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reillyshoe wrote:
Joey,
Don't you think he has already foundered in this foot?

I don't know that there is any actual laminar damage in but maybe the distal half of the foot. I'm quite positive that the bone has re-oriented but in this case the wall on the lateral side actually pulled in leaving a divot.

There was no heat, no digital pulse, and zero reaction to hoof testers. So, I don't really know, absent any rads I don't think that I can make that distinction. I did reccomend a vetrinary consult though.

Boudreau's Coco wrote:
You invaded live tissue. Was a Vet present or is this not considered practicing Veterinary medicine in TX?

Terry

How so? Are you refering to the leak?

I had to do this all with a knife, she didn't like my dremel, and she doesn't like to keep her foot on the stand. Live tissue was her choice not mine.
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 06 Jun 2009 23:02 #18

Joey Aczon wrote:
How so? Are you refering to the leak?

I had to do this all with a knife, she didn't like my dremel, and she doesn't like to keep her foot on the stand. Live tissue was her choice not mine.

Oh so it was the horse's fault that a leak happened.

Thanks,

Terry
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 06 Jun 2009 23:14 #19

  • Cyber Farrier
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Joey Aczon wrote:
...I had to do this all with a knife,...

That is an awesome job, done with a knife. I thought for sure you'd used a dremel. Kudos.

Baron
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 01:58 #20

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Gary Hill wrote:
If you felt the "bone was sinking" why didn't you go with a heartbar?:confused:


Not to be a 'devil's advocate', but is there actually any proof that a heartbar will stop sinking?

A Dutch computer model study done a few years ago showed that a straight bar and a heart bar gave identical support to minimize sole deformation. The paper was presented at a Bluegrass Lamimitis symposium.
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 02:02 #21

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Boudreau's Coco wrote:
Oh so it was the horse's fault that a leak happened.

Thanks,

Terry

Nice to see you back, Tree.




Ruth A Hamilton
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 02:11 #22

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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mwmyersdvm in gray,

Not to be a 'devil's advocate', but is there actually any proof that a heartbar will stop sinking?

A Dutch computer model study done a few years ago showed that a straight bar and a heart bar gave identical support to minimize sole deformation. The paper was presented at a Bluegrass Lamimitis symposium.


The Austin weatherman uses computer models to predict the weather here in Central Texas, a fact that does not engender a great deal of faith in the accuracy of computer models.

As I recall, Chapman and Platt presented a paper at the 1984 AAEP Convention that touched on the subject. Please see http://www.olympus.net/personal/pvd/AAEP.html
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 02:43 #23

  • irishcas
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
As I recall, Chapman and Platt presented a paper at the 1984 AAEP Convention that touched on the subject. Please see http://www.olympus.net/personal/pvd/AAEP.html

Thank you Tom, interesting read.

My attention was caught by his reference to the casts. Which led my thoughts to many of the hoof boots on the market.

NO WONDER so many horses don't like the "clamping" of certain boots. I've been trying to tell my barefoot compatriots that boots aren't better or always a smarter choice over shoes. My ideas are meeting with much resistance, despite my insistence that I'm keep telling them, I'm not against boots for ALL horses.

I just think people don't recognize issues.

This article gives me more to think about/process.

Again, thank you!
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 02:51 #24

  • mwmyersdvm
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
mwmyersdvm in gray,

Not to be a 'devil's advocate', but is there actually any proof that a heartbar will stop sinking?

A Dutch computer model study done a few years ago showed that a straight bar and a heart bar gave identical support to minimize sole deformation. The paper was presented at a Bluegrass Lamimitis symposium.


The Austin weatherman uses computer models to predict the weather here in Central Texas, a fact that does not engender a great deal of faith in the accuracy of computer models.

As I recall, Chapman and Platt presented a paper at the 1984 AAEP Convention that touched on the subject. Please see http://www.olympus.net/personal/pvd/AAEP.html

That is a great theoretical treatise, but it does not provide any proof of effectiveness nor does it explain how frog presssure will assist in the cessation of P3 movement in the hoof capsule. The paper even further states that the heart bar should not be used in the true sinker.

The computer model of the hoof did appear to have a better basis in its construction than the weather model :) However, I am still awaiting the research data to show the benefits of the heart bar.
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 02:56 #25

  • Joey Aczon
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OK, well I'm sure that at least one or two of you notced that this shoe isn't flat. I actually put a french roll in it. (I'm all excited now that I know it has a real term. LOL) This foot has always been quite flat, and I used that to create some depth and add sole relief.

Now to all those concerned about the founder issue. I have the straightbar fitted in the same manner as I would have a heartbar. I also did this...

http://horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=219&pictureid=1509

How much does that change the picture for you guys?
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 03:09 #26

  • Joey Aczon
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irishcas wrote:
Thank you Tom, interesting read.

My attention was caught by his reference to the casts. Which led my thoughts to many of the hoof boots on the market.

NO WONDER so many horses don't like the "clamping" of certain boots. I've been trying to tell my barefoot compatriots that boots aren't better or always a smarter choice over shoes. My ideas are meeting with much resistance, despite my insistence that I'm keep telling them, I'm not against boots for ALL horses.

I just think people don't recognize issues.

This article gives me more to think about/process.

Again, thank you!

*frustrated grunt* I've been trying to tell you that for going on 2 years now!
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 03:11 #27

  • irishcas
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Joey Aczon wrote:
*frustrated grunt* I've been trying to tell you that for going on 2 years now!

Well DUH if you had said it all fancy like the article maybe I would have caught on sooner.

:D :D

Nothing so annoying as a convert eh? ;)
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 03:52 #28

  • Joey Aczon
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Cyber Farrier wrote:
That is an awesome job, done with a knife. I thought for sure you'd used a dremel. Kudos.

Baron

Thanks, I almost missed this post. Yeah, it took some real muscle work. I don't even have a pair of half rounds. :D
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 10:12 #29

  • Ray_Knightley
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mwmyersdvm;161097 wrote:
Not to be a 'devil's advocate', but is there actually any proof that a heartbar will stop sinking?
QUOTE]

Is this not always the same answer .....SOMETIMES ,sometimes NOT...;)

Those horses that are standing in soft ground have a better chance ,than those with shoes ,shod for some time ,with a concave sole ...and the vet and farrier are not called straight away..

What I really want to ask is the first aid the most important thing in any one case ...????

The reconstruction when done right and regular shoeing ,with no new case of laminitis almost a walk in the park ......also sometimes,sometimes not...:rolleyes:

Good work JOEY,I thought the red stuff was Iodine,nice shoe ,,,more pictures please!
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RE:Whoa! Where'd that come from?! 07 Jun 2009 15:48 #30

  • tbloomer
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
That is a great theoretical treatise, but it does not provide any proof of effectiveness nor does it explain how frog presssure will assist in the cessation of P3 movement in the hoof capsule. The paper even further states that the heart bar should not be used in the true sinker.

The computer model of the hoof did appear to have a better basis in its construction than the weather model :) However, I am still awaiting the research data to show the benefits of the heart bar.
A computer model is only effective if what is being modeled is actually what is happening.

You might want to have a discussion with Jason Maki about some direct measurement experiments he did with radiographs and various orthotic applications in managing negative P3 situations. What Jason shared with me in conversation about the heart bar in his experiment was extremely valuable in helping me better understand the mechanics and mechanical "gotchas" of supporting P3 or attempting to support it.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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